DIY Solar Panel

Commercial Solar Water Heaters ?

admin — Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

While in Spain and Isreal it seems that everyone uses solar-water heaters, here in California, there seems to be very little commercial activity, and painfully few solar water collectors on roofs. With solar water heating being such an obvious way to save energy cost, I’ve been very surprized to find that solar water heating seems to be still in the almost build-it-from-scratch do-it-yourself projects phase. Anyone knows where you can simply buy a ‘package’ for a typical direct pumped system, with solar collector, some insulated piping, pump, valves, control unit and optionally a standard (gas-powered) water-heater (if you cannot use the existing heater)…. This seems something that should be available at Home Depot…. Quick calculation of my own (average home) water-heating cost, solar water heating should save me $300/year easily. If I can buy the ready-to-install hardware for $1000 or less, I will get my investment back in just a few years. Or would commencial systems be more expensive than that ? I have gas-powered water heater. Electric water-heater users should save much more. And for apartment buildings, with more water users in a single building, there would probably be much more potential for saving energy cost. Where is the commercial activity ?

Response:

| Quick calculation of my own (average home) water-heating cost, | solar water heating should save me $300/year easily. If I can | buy the ready-to-install hardware for $1000 or less, I will get | my investment back in just a few years. | Or would commencial systems be more expensive than that ? | Where is the commercial activity ? Rob… I’m manufacturing passive solar heating panels and have designed, built, and tested /one/ prototype DHW system I considered good enough to take to market. That’s not much of an experience base, but enough for me to develop some numbers. A commercial high-quality (efficient, long-life, reliable) DHW system including the associated pumps and control subsystem suitable for installation in the upper midwest is likely to cost in excess of $2K – which I decided was more than most homeowners would be willing to fork over. There’s an additional "fly in the ointment" in that once such a system is sold and installed, it’s (currently) extremely difficult to find anyone to provide after-sale maintenance/repair service. — Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Quick calculation of my own (average home) water-heating cost, | solar water heating should save me $300/year easily. If I can | buy the ready-to-install hardware for $1000 or less, I will get | my investment back in just a few years. | Or would commencial systems be more expensive than that ? | Where is the commercial activity ? Rob… I’m manufacturing passive solar heating panels and have designed, built, and tested /one/ prototype DHW system I considered good enough to take to market. That’s not much of an experience base, but enough for me to develop some numbers.

One prototype is nice as a ‘feasibility’ experiment, so I have to assume that it will take you a while but sell 10 of the systems and you are a business. Then move to 100, to 1000 etc… A commercial high-quality (efficient, long-life, reliable) DHW system including the associated pumps and control subsystem suitable for installation in the upper midwest is likely to cost in excess of $2K – which I decided was more than most homeowners would be willing to fork over.

That’s really cool ! Is that your production cost price ? Or you retail price ? Considering that PV systems that people are installing today cost much more than that and probably create less $’s energy savings, there has to be a pretty good market for your system. I would guess that in California (more sun-hours/day, virtually no risk of freezing) the collector could be smaller and the system simpler, and thus will be cheaper, so you might have a winner here ! Also note that the ‘million solar roof initiative’ is now on our Governator’s desk : http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=23711 If approved, there would be considerable rebates for buying solar systems. That would bring the price of your system down to less than $1000.- ! So the market might be ready for a good commercial system. There’s an additional "fly in the ointment" in that once such a system is sold and installed, it’s (currently) extremely difficult to find anyone to provide after-sale maintenance/repair service.

That probably depends on the system that you want to sell and the people you want to sell it to. The first real market would probably be the ‘self-installers’. People that know how to follow installation instructions, and know how to hold a crewdriver and would install their own stuff. People that buy water heaters at Home Depot, so to say. It would require a fool-proof / safe-proof system though…. Easy to buy, easy to install, and self-correcting (no complicated tools, adjustements or test equipment needed). Beyond that, a regular plumber should be able to learn how to service a simple solar heater system after in a day of training or so…. Where there is a market, service people will sprout up… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Response:

Somehow strange that in the US this seems to be so rare… Here in Germany it’s easy to buy one, either for do-it-yourself installation, or a finished, installed system. Buy collectors, pump systems, exlectronic control, … anything. It’s more difficult to get a good heat tank, but manageable. A lot of plumbers also (at least announce that they do) know how to install and manage them. Which is fairly trivial. I had no experience at plumbing whatsoever, and I was able to install the solar circuit part myself. Experience in some details of planning and design would be an advantage (where to optimally install the heat tank, how large the system should be, etc). Costs are higher here though, but oil also is more expensive, so it is getting cost-neutral in about 10-15 years here (faster maybe due to the rise in oil price in the last months!)… but it’s always a good feeling not to need any oil (well, nearly) during summer. I installed a relatively large system, but it can supply us with warm water for up to 4 bad weather days, which is needed here where I live I always compare economical systems with ecological ones, and I chose ecological (more expensive than needed, but it also saves a few percents more of oil than the other due to the layout of the system). Christian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Quick calculation of my own (average home) water-heating cost, | solar water heating should save me $300/year easily. If I can | buy the ready-to-install hardware for $1000 or less, I will get | my investment back in just a few years. | Or would commencial systems be more expensive than that ? | Where is the commercial activity ? Rob… I’m manufacturing passive solar heating panels and have designed, built, and tested /one/ prototype DHW system I considered good enough to take to market. That’s not much of an experience base, but enough for me to develop some numbers. One prototype is nice as a ‘feasibility’ experiment, so I have to assume that it will take you a while but sell 10 of the systems and you are a business. Then move to 100, to 1000 etc… A commercial high-quality (efficient, long-life, reliable) DHW system including the associated pumps and control subsystem suitable for installation in the upper midwest is likely to cost in excess of $2K – which I decided was more than most homeowners would be willing to fork over. That’s really cool ! Is that your production cost price ? Or you retail price ? Considering that PV systems that people are installing today cost much more than that and probably create less $’s energy savings, there has to be a pretty good market for your system. I would guess that in California (more sun-hours/day, virtually no risk of freezing) the collector could be smaller and the system simpler, and thus will be cheaper, so you might have a winner here ! Also note that the ‘million solar roof initiative’ is now on our Governator’s desk : http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=23711 If approved, there would be considerable rebates for buying solar systems. That would bring the price of your system down to less than $1000.- ! So the market might be ready for a good commercial system. There’s an additional "fly in the ointment" in that once such a system is sold and installed, it’s (currently) extremely difficult to find anyone to provide after-sale maintenance/repair service. That probably depends on the system that you want to sell and the people you want to sell it to. The first real market would probably be the ‘self-installers’. People that know how to follow installation instructions, and know how to hold a crewdriver and would install their own stuff. People that buy water heaters at Home Depot, so to say. It would require a fool-proof / safe-proof system though…. Easy to buy, easy to install, and self-correcting (no complicated tools, adjustements or test equipment needed). Beyond that, a regular plumber should be able to learn how to service a simple solar heater system after in a day of training or so…. Where there is a market, service people will sprout up… — Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Response:

|| A commercial high-quality (efficient, long-life, reliable) DHW || system including the associated pumps and control subsystem || suitable for installation in the upper midwest is likely to cost || in excess of $2K – which I decided was more than most homeowners || would be willing to fork over. | | That’s really cool ! | Is that your production cost price ? Or you retail price ? Sorry, I should have specified. It’s the wholesale price that was estimated (fairly carefully) to cover cost of production plus 20%. If the product were moderately successful, then the 20% would be eaten up completely by the costs associated with expansion of the enterprise. Major success (requiring rapid growth) would unquestionably require significant price increase. Not included in the $2K: shipping, installation, and costs associated with any warranties and any costs incurred with meeting any government-imposed standards (for which your state is famous, even in remotest Iowa . | Considering that PV systems that people are installing today cost much more | than that and probably create less $’s energy savings, there has to be a pretty | good market for your system. Perhaps PV systems are selling well in your neck of the woods. Around here they aren’t because people aren’t finding an favorable cost/benefit trade-off. | I would guess that in California (more sun-hours/day, virtually no risk of freezing) | the collector could be smaller and the system simpler, and thus will be cheaper, | so you might have a winner here ! The bad news is that while the cost of materials needed might be somewhat less, the reduction in total cost would be noticably smaller – possibly insignificant. | Also note that the ‘million solar roof initiative’ is now on our | Governator’s desk : | http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=23711 | | If approved, there would be considerable rebates for buying solar systems. | That would bring the price of your system down to less than $1000.-! I’m always pleasantly surprised when politicians follow through on measures from which their constituancies benefit – especially when they manage to do so without incurring huge deficits or reaching into their constituant’s pockets for still more taxes (or, in California’s case, granting companies like PG&E license to rape and pillage). | So the market might be ready for a good commercial system. I think the "early adapters" might be; but the bulk of the market isn’t quite. || There’s an additional "fly in the ointment" in that once such a || system is sold and installed, it’s (currently) extremely difficult || to find anyone to provide after-sale maintenance/repair service. | | That probably depends on the system that you want to sell | and the people you want to sell it to. In my mind, it needs to be as straight-foreward as a conventional electric water heater. It can’t be as inherently simple, but from a service perspective, a Joe Ordinary service person should be able to remedy a worst-case service scenario within a half-hour. | The first real market would probably be the ‘self-installers’. | People that know how to follow installation instructions, | and know how to hold a crewdriver and would install their own stuff. | People that buy water heaters at Home Depot, so to say. I’m not as comfortable with this as you seem to be. Installation involves carpentry, plumbing, and electrical work – and strict conformance to building codes. While I’m sure there are people around who’re well-grounded (no pun intended) in all three fields and who know the applicable codes, I’m acutely aware that this group doesn’t constitute a market by a long shot. It’s been less than a week since I had an e-mail exchange with a (professional) carpenter who was planning to install solar heating panels on the north wall of his home – and I happen to know that he’s a reasonably bright guy – his house just didn’t face the direction he thought it did. | It would require a fool-proof / safe-proof system though…. | Easy to buy, easy to install, and self-correcting (no complicated | tools, adjustements or test equipment needed). You lost me at the "fool-proof" part. It’s a lot easier to design a system that can only fail "safe" than it is to design something that a creative fool can’t find a way to screw up or hurt himself with. | Beyond that, a regular plumber should be able to learn how to | service a simple solar heater system after in a day of training or | so…. | Where there is a market, service people will sprout up… True. My question is: "How many homeowners will have to do without needed service/repair visits until that sprouting takes place?" The very first homeowner who can’t get the service needed will become an anti-solar evangelist. The twenty-fifth will be an enterprise ELE (extinction level event). Note that none of the problems are solar water heater technical problems. There are still more hurdles than discussed here – and my decision (in large part determined by the resources available to me) were to neither sell nor offer water heating panels. CAD drawing and CNC program files are safely archived on CDs and if I can puzzle out some reasonable way to ensure customer satisfaction and safety, I can put the panels into production. Until then I’ll probably remain as frustrated as you. — Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Response:

Here in Germany it’s easy to buy one, either for do-it-yourself installation, or a finished, installed system. Buy collectors, pump systems, exlectronic control… anything. It’s more difficult to get a good heat tank, but manageable…

That’s a big cost item. Large and heavy, and it wears out. Our solar pond concept has an inexpensive plastic pipe spiral instead, with no fresh water pump or antifreeze. The horizontal pond collector eliminates lots of piping and minimizes pump power and makes a box on the lawn vs a box on the roof. I’d like to see this commercialized as an easy-to-assemble kit. See http://www.BuildItSolar.com Nick

Response:

I am wondering whether your system will be cheaper if you simply buy the components from China instead of trying to manufacturing here in US. Based on info that I came across some where in the net, there are whole street of stores selling solar water heaters in some areas in China (I don’t remember the details). Moreover, China is already manufacturing solar water heaters (in quantities I believe). You "may" be able to get the cost down and make it a price competitive product in this way. Labor cost is much lower in China. You may take advantage of this fact in the beginning to get the US market at least "started". When the US market become big enough for your solar power heaters, you can look for capital to build a highly automated factory in US to produce your solar water heater; then you can keep the cost down while keep your business near the final market. I am puzzled that no one has already started doing this… I guess the natural gas price is still low enough that people still can afford not using solar power for water heating. As long as local supply of natural gas is still plentiful, people will not be attracted to solar water heating. That’s until the local supply runs low and people need to start importing natural gas from other regions through natural gas terminals, and be exposed to global energy price and the competition of natural gas from other countries (China has started using a lot of natural gas to replace the use of coal). Then people may realize that they have been paying very little for natural gas, and will start reviewing all their alternatives. Hopefully, solar water heater will be on top of the list of alternatives. I guess the keys are when will be the time when local supply of natural gas will run low, and how expensive the global price of natural gas will be. I am just speculating. I am not an expert in this area. I am hoping that someone can give us an insight on this issue as of why solar water heaters are not taking off in US. Jay Chan

Response:

Anyone knows where you can simply buy a ‘package’ for a typical direct pumped system, with solar collector, some insulated piping, pump, valves, control unit and optionally a standard (gas-powered) water-heater (if you cannot use the existing heater)….

Did you really look around? Heliodyne makes panels and pre-engineers systems which appear to be sold by lots of web-based stores. I haven’t looked, but I don’t think these are available at Home Depot. The price is also higher than you asked for, because the panels are built for conditions and handling much worse than you will probably expose them to. That’s what you get with pre-engineering. Alternatively, you can pay more for custom engineering (or engineer it yourself) and less for materials. http://shop.altenergystore.com/itemdesc~ic~HELHP-2-4X8PV~eq~~Tp~.htm I’m not terribly familiar with the market. I know AEC makes panels as well, and SRCC publishes tests that they do on hundreds of different pre-engineered systems from at least a dozen manufacturers. So, it’s not like the absolute level of activity is tiny here in the States, it’s just that it’s a (very) big country and there is not much market penetration right now. http://www.solar-rating.org/ <- SRCC site

Response:

| I am wondering whether your system will be cheaper if you simply buy | the components from China instead of trying to manufacturing here in | US. Based on info that I came across some where in the net, there | are whole street of stores selling solar water heaters in some | areas in China (I don’t remember the details). Moreover, China is | already manufacturing solar water heaters (in quantities I | believe). You "may" be able to get the cost down and make it a | price competitive product in this way. Possibly. CNC tooling has allowed me to do a fairly good job of minimizing the labor content. From what you say, I’m surprised that they’re not already exporting to the USA. | Labor cost is much lower in China. You may take advantage of this | fact in the beginning to get the US market at least "started". When | the US market become big enough for your solar power heaters, you | can look for capital to build a highly automated factory in US to | produce your solar water heater; then you can keep the cost down | while keep your business near the final market. I am puzzled that | no one has already started doing this… See above. By myself I can already produce more than I can sell. Expanding current capacity is largely a matter of installing more of the same machinery and hiring people to do painting and/or assembly. | I guess the natural gas price is still low enough that people still | can afford not using solar power for water heating. As long as | local supply of natural gas is still plentiful, people will not be | attracted to solar water heating. That’s until the local supply | runs low and people need to start importing natural gas from other | regions through natural gas terminals, and be exposed to global | energy price and the competition of natural gas from other | countries (China has started using a lot of natural gas to replace | the use of coal). Then people may realize that they have been | paying very little for natural gas, and will start reviewing all | their alternatives. Hopefully, solar water heater will be on top of | the list of alternatives. I guess the keys are when will be the | time when local supply of natural gas will run low, and how | expensive the global price of natural gas will be. I suspect you’re correct. For many people in my area, natural gas isn’t an option. Most farms heat with oil, propane, or electricity. | I am just speculating. I am not an expert in this area. I am hoping | that someone can give us an insight on this issue as of why solar | water heaters are not taking off in US. [1] Most people want simple "magic bullet" solutions. They don’t want the redundancy of solar plus conventional systems. There’s a feeling that if solar can’t do the entire job, then it can’t be very good. [2] Operating cost is not (yet) a principal factor in purchasing a water heater, and conventional (non-solar) systems are both less expensive to purchase and require less/fewer skills to install. [3] The belief is that there will be no natural gas supply problem. The price may rise, but the supply will be reliable. China’s increased use of hydrocarbon fuels will simply accelerate the onset of problems for both countries. As we all compete for the same fuel, we drive the price of fuel up. At present China is enjoying prosperity as a result of low-labor cost production of goods for consumers in other countries. China’s standard of living (we all hope) will improve and as a result the Chinese economy will become increasingly energy hungry – driving fuel prices higher globally until a high percentage of their customers need to choose between purchases of Chinese goods and fuel for warmth and transportation. Although we all talk about cheap Chinese labor, Chinese brains and education are and will be far more important – just as brains and education became more important than what we once thought of as "cheap Japanese labor". What remains to be seen is whether the Chinese are culturally capable of choosing "win-win" strategies. My guess is "yes"; but I’m not an expert. I think I’d enjoy collaborating with interested Chinese (and anyone/everyone else!) to develop alternative energy solutions from which we all benefit. /My/ problem is that I haven’t a clue how to initiate that kind of effort nor how to persue it with the resources currently available to me. — Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Response:

Somehow strange that in the US this seems to be so rare…

Having lived both in Northern Europe and in the US for 20 years each, I have some ideas about that. There are many, many factors that play a role, but the most important ones I think are the low cost of fossil fuel (low taxation of energy) in the US, and a business attitude towards solving recognized problems, rather than the more longer-term visions and of Europeans. One thing that is important for this subject is that in the US, if there is a business opportunity, someone will jump on it. Usually big-time. Here in Germany it’s easy to buy one, either for do-it-yourself installation, or a finished, installed system. Buy collectors, pump systems, exlectronic control, … anything.

So, where do you buy this ? At the local do-it-yourself home centers, or at specialty stores ? And how much does a typical collector cost (per m^2) ? How many choices do you have (are there many companies building these panels ?) Does the German covernment issue rebates for solar systems to end-users ? Or do they subsidize the manufacturers directly ? How much (as a %) does the government subsidize solar heating systems ? It’s more difficult to get a good heat tank, but manageable.

Isn’t this just a good standard water heater ? (I think they are called ‘boiler’ in Europe). What does the tank use as backup ? Gas-burner ? oil burner ? or electric heater element ? A lot of plumbers also (at least announce that they do) know how to install and manage them. Which is fairly trivial. I had no experience at plumbing whatsoever, and I was able to install the solar circuit part myself. Experience in some details of planning and design would be an advantage (where to optimally install the heat tank, how large the system should be, etc).

Do you need a building permit before you can install your system on the roof ? Does an inspector need to sign-off on the installation ? Costs are higher here though, but oil also is more expensive, so it is getting cost-neutral in about 10-15 years here (faster maybe due to the rise in oil price in the last months!)… but it’s always a good feeling not to need any oil (well, nearly) during summer.

10-15 years for return on investment is probably too long for US customers. Most Americans don’t live in the same house for more than 7 years, and real-estate assessors do not yet recognize any value for a solar system on the roof. There is much more value in adding a bathroom (that’s why US homes have so many bathrooms..:o) or an updated kitchen, or nice landscaping. How many homes in Germany use solar water-heating ? In the face of this long investment period, it should not be that many… This might the difference in consumer attitude that I described above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I installed a relatively large system, but it can supply us with warm water for up to 4 bad weather days, which is needed here where I live I always compare economical systems with ecological ones, and I chose ecological (more expensive than needed, but it also saves a few percents more of oil than the other due to the layout of the system). Christian [...]

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – || A commercial high-quality (efficient, long-life, reliable) DHW || system including the associated pumps and control subsystem || suitable for installation in the upper midwest is likely to cost || in excess of $2K – which I decided was more than most homeowners || would be willing to fork over. | | That’s really cool ! | Is that your production cost price ? Or you retail price ? Sorry, I should have specified. It’s the wholesale price that was estimated (fairly carefully) to cover cost of production plus 20%. If the product were moderately successful, then the 20% would be eaten up completely by the costs associated with expansion of the enterprise. Major success (requiring rapid growth) would unquestionably require significant price increase.

Thanks Morris. So we are talking about a $3-4k retail value system once it is sold in stores. That does indeed restrict the market, but it should still be large enough for you to grow nicely (without need for external capital). Does Iowa state (your neck of the woods?) issue rebates for solar systems ? Not included in the $2K: shipping, installation, and costs associated with any warranties and any costs incurred with meeting any government-imposed standards (for which your state is famous, even in remotest Iowa .

Yeah. I know what you mean. I have not looked into this enough. | Considering that PV systems that people are installing today cost much more | than that and probably create less $’s energy savings, there has to be a pretty | good market for your system. Perhaps PV systems are selling well in your neck of the woods. Around here they aren’t because people aren’t finding an favorable cost/benefit trade-off.

For some strange reason PV systems seem to be more in the picture than passive thermal systems. Even in the California ‘million solar roof’ initiative. I have no idea why that is, because it makes no economic sense at all. I think people in your state are just smarter in that respect. | I would guess that in California (more sun-hours/day, virtually no risk of freezing) | the collector could be smaller and the system simpler, and thus will be cheaper, | so you might have a winner here ! The bad news is that while the cost of materials needed might be somewhat less, the reduction in total cost would be noticably smaller – possibly insignificant.

Is that even true for a changed system ? In most of California, a simple direct pumped system would suffice, because of the extremely low chance of freezing (a simple freeze-prevention valve will do). A direct pumped system can even be hooked up to a standard water heater, relieving the need to sell the solar system with a water heater. I figure that in Iowa you need a indirect system, requiring a larger collector (for the reduced efficiency), and a special water tank (one with a heat-exchanger). Not to mention the extra requirements with anti-freeze fluids and expansion tank and such. An indirect (freeze-safe) system must be considerable more expensive, and certainly more difficult to install and maintain than the simple system we need here, right ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Also note that the ‘million solar roof initiative’ is now on our | Governator’s desk : | http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=23711 | | If approved, there would be considerable rebates for buying solar systems. | That would bring the price of your system down to less than $1000.-! I’m always pleasantly surprised when politicians follow through on measures from which their constituancies benefit – especially when they manage to do so without incurring huge deficits or reaching into their constituant’s pockets for still more taxes (or, in California’s case, granting companies like PG&E license to rape and pillage). | So the market might be ready for a good commercial system. I think the "early adapters" might be; but the bulk of the market isn’t quite.

I think you are right. But often it is a chicken-and-egg problem of consumer awareness : If your water heater breaks, you go and buy a new one. You go to the store, and all you see is gas and electric water heaters. If there were a ‘solar’ option, or even a water heater that is same price but ‘solar-ready’ (a heater which has extra openings where a solar panel can be plumbed-in later on, then I’m sure it will create at least awareness and with awareness comes interest and market.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – || There’s an additional "fly in the ointment" in that once such a || system is sold and installed, it’s (currently) extremely difficult || to find anyone to provide after-sale maintenance/repair service. | | That probably depends on the system that you want to sell | and the people you want to sell it to. In my mind, it needs to be as straight-foreward as a conventional electric water heater. It can’t be as inherently simple, but from a service perspective, a Joe Ordinary service person should be able to remedy a worst-case service scenario within a half-hour. | The first real market would probably be the ‘self-installers’. | People that know how to follow installation instructions, | and know how to hold a crewdriver and would install their own stuff. | People that buy water heaters at Home Depot, so to say. I’m not as comfortable with this as you seem to be. Installation involves carpentry, plumbing, and electrical work – and strict conformance to building codes. While I’m sure there are people around who’re well-grounded (no pun intended) in all three fields and who know the applicable codes, I’m acutely aware that this group doesn’t constitute a market by a long shot. It’s been less than a week since I had an e-mail exchange with a (professional) carpenter who was planning to install solar heating panels on the north wall of his home – and I happen to know that he’s a reasonably bright guy – his house just didn’t face the direction he thought it did. | It would require a fool-proof / safe-proof system though…. | Easy to buy, easy to install, and self-correcting (no complicated | tools, adjustements or test equipment needed). You lost me at the "fool-proof" part. It’s a lot easier to design a system that can only fail "safe" than it is to design something that a creative fool can’t find a way to screw up or hurt himself with.

I’m sorry, you are right. A "fool-proof" system does not exist. What I meant was that Murphy’s law should be considered when designing the system. Ball Valves / pressure relief valves / air vents, temp sensors etc should be mountable in only one direction and order or be pre-mounted on the collector or tank entries. Stuff like that. | Beyond that, a regular plumber should be able to learn how to | service a simple solar heater system after in a day of training or | so…. | Where there is a market, service people will sprout up… True. My question is: "How many homeowners will have to do without needed service/repair visits until that sprouting takes place?" The very first homeowner who can’t get the service needed will become an anti-solar evangelist. The twenty-fifth will be an enterprise ELE (extinction level event).

Your fear seems to be shared by other commercial and political solar activities. That is too bad, because in order to be successfull, you really need to believe that you can do it, and that you have the right product and process to get into the market and grow. I know that there was a wave of activity in solar water heaters in the 70s and 80s. That died out, and I sense that there is some fear to get back into the market. I wonder if that failure has something to do with the current reluctance to embrace commercial solar-heating again. I did not live in the US at that time. What happened ? Note that none of the problems are solar water heater technical problems. There are still more hurdles than discussed here – and my decision (in large part determined by the resources available to me) were to neither sell nor offer water heating panels. CAD drawing and CNC program files are safely archived on CDs and if I can puzzle out some reasonable way to ensure customer satisfaction and safety, I can put the panels into production. Until then I’ll probably remain as frustrated as you.

You won’t know customer satisfaction until you start having customers. I sense that you feel good about the design of your system, but do not yet feel so good about the market. Somebody else will feel good about the market and not have a good design yet. Keep your eyes open for a business partner.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

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| Does Iowa state (your neck of the woods?) issue rebates for solar | systems ? Iowa? Solar systems? Eh? | For some strange reason PV systems seem to be more in the picture | than passive thermal systems. Even in the California ‘million solar | roof’ initiative. I have no idea why that is, because it makes no economic sense at | all. I think people in your state are just smarter in that respect. Probably not smarter – I would guess they feel a need to spend their money /very/ carefully. || The bad news is that while the cost of materials needed might be || somewhat less, the reduction in total cost would be noticably || smaller – possibly insignificant. | | Is that even true for a changed system ? I would guess so. Mutiple product lines tend to increase costs – not reduce them unless there is sufficient activity to justify separate (simultaneous) production. ||| So the market might be ready for a good commercial system. || || I think the "early adapters" might be; but the bulk of the market || isn’t quite. | | I think you are right. | But often it is a chicken-and-egg problem of consumer awareness : | | If your water heater breaks, you go and buy a new one. | You go to the store, and all you see is gas and electric water | heaters. | If there were a ‘solar’ option, or even a water heater that is same | price but ‘solar-ready’ (a heater which has extra openings where a | solar panel can | be plumbed-in later on, then I’m sure it will create at least | awareness | and with awareness comes interest and market.. You’re right – it /is/ a chicken-and-egg problem. Unfortunately, the solution to the problem is education/advertizing at a level beyond my means. ||| Beyond that, a regular plumber should be able to learn how to ||| service a simple solar heater system after in a day of training or ||| so…. ||| Where there is a market, service people will sprout up… || || True. My question is: "How many homeowners will have to do without || needed service/repair visits until that sprouting takes place?" The || very first homeowner who can’t get the service needed will become || an anti-solar evangelist. The twenty-fifth will be an enterprise || ELE (extinction level event). | | Your fear seems to be shared by other commercial and political solar | activities. That is too bad, because in order to be successfull, | you really need to believe that you can do it, and that you have | the right product and process to get into the market and grow. Unfortunately, my confidence and a "great" product aren’t enough. As soon as I enter the powered/plumbed appliance arena, I expose myself to every kind of litigation you could possibly imagine. I hate the entire CYA concept, but this arena absolutely requires product liability protection. Even a completely spurious lawsuit could be crippling. | I know that there was a wave of activity in solar water heaters in the 70s and 80s. | That died out, and I sense that there is some fear to get back into the market. | I wonder if that failure has something to do with the current reluctance to | embrace commercial solar-heating again. | I did not live in the US at that time. What happened ? In a nutshell [1] no one made any serious money, [2] a lot of the good work that did get done was done by people that were regarded as not ‘mainstream’ (and therefore weren’t credible.) | Keep your eyes open for a business partner. I have been. I’ve also been looking for collaborators in countries where people are less able to afford hydrocarbon fuels and might be more receptive to workable alternatives. — Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

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Special stores and/or internet, usually around 140 EUR/m^2 or more. We get subventioned by about EUR105/m^2, though, so collector area is very cheap here. There are many companies building collectors, but I don’t know how often they are just rebranded ones. Austria is very experienced in collectors, they offer several companies that exist longer than 10 years, which is a good thing to know. They guarantee a life-time of 10 years, some more. I bought Austrian ones, at 360EUR for 2.6 m^2, they are "landscape" oriented, a little bit more expensive than the "portrait" ones. Does the German covernment issue rebates for solar systems to end-users ?

Yes, by gross collector area. By the above amount (changed recently from 110 to 105 EUR). As I have 11 m^2, it was (at 110 EUR/m^2) about 1210 EUR! That is, if you have collectors of a certain quality (which they of course all fulfill), that need to be able to get a minimum of 525 W by each m^2. Isn’t this just a good standard water heater ? (I think they are called ‘boiler’ in Europe). What does the tank use as backup ? Gas-burner ? oil burner ? or electric heater element ?

Well it is a tank that has two heat exchangers. In the tank there’s water from the oil heating, so not exchanged (thus no problem with lime. The lower heat exchange is used for heating by the solar system, the upper one to heat the water for the household. For smaller systems, the tank is filled with the water you use, and the upper heat exchange is used for the backup heating. The heating itself (oil in my case, but could be anything that gets more than 40

Solar vs heatpumps in sunny Ireland ?

admin — Mon, 11 Apr 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi All We’re planning on making a move from sunny Suffolk-by-the-sea to the south-west of Ireland. It’s possible that we may do a ‘self-build’ project over there – but even if we buy an existing property we’ll want to make it as energy-efficient as possible. Here in Suffolk we have a ‘thermomax’-baed system for domestic hot water, assisted by a boiler on the woodburner and mains electric as a last resort ! I know that you don’t need ‘blazing sunshine’ to work the thermomaxes – but does anybody have experience of running a solar dhw system in the sourth of the Republic – where the weather is notoriously ‘soft’

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Also – I know little or nothing about ground-based heatpump systems – other than they appear to offer very cheap energy for dhw and ch use. I’m happy to Google for more information – but I’m looking for ‘hands-on’ comments from people who have this type of system are have lived with it….

I’m looking into the same thing at the moment. Google can find no end of stuff about the principles involved, but precious little hard information about the practicalities – like who sells it, exactly what models are available / required, and how much they cost. I went to a building exhibition where I talked to several suppliers. All took my details and promised to contact me to sort out a surey / quote. None have. I am beginning to think this is just a nice theory with nothing practical available. I wonder how difficult it would be to get service if it is so hard to buy in the first place. — Duncan

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I’ve had hands on with GSHP’s. Look at www.econar.com Yes, they can be powered with PV if you spend enough on panels …. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also – I know little or nothing about ground-based heatpump systems – other than they appear to offer very cheap energy for dhw and ch use. I’m happy to Google for more information – but I’m looking for ‘hands-on’ comments from people who have this type of system are have lived with it…. I’m looking into the same thing at the moment. Google can find no end of stuff about the principles involved, but precious little hard information about the practicalities – like who sells it, exactly what models are available / required, and how much they cost. I went to a building exhibition where I talked to several suppliers. All took my details and promised to contact me to sort out a surey / quote. None have. I am beginning to think this is just a nice theory with nothing practical available. I wonder how difficult it would be to get service if it is so hard to buy in the first place.

Response:

HI Duncan Thanks for the reply – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also – I know little or nothing about ground-based heatpump systems – other than they appear to offer very cheap energy for dhw and ch use. I’m happy to Google for more information – but I’m looking for ‘hands-on’ comments from people who have this type of system are have lived with it…. I’m looking into the same thing at the moment. Google can find no end of stuff about the principles involved, but precious little hard information about the practicalities – like who sells it, exactly what models are available / required, and how much they cost. I went to a building exhibition where I talked to several suppliers. All took my details and promised to contact me to sort out a surey / quote. None have. I am beginning to think this is just a nice theory with nothing practical available. I wonder how difficult it would be to get service if it is so hard to buy in the first place.

Fair comments

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI Duncan Thanks for the reply Also – I know little or nothing about ground-based heatpump systems – other than they appear to offer very cheap energy for dhw and ch use. I’m happy to Google for more information – but I’m looking for ‘hands-on’ comments from people who have this type of system are have lived with it…. I’m looking into the same thing at the moment. Google can find no end of stuff about the principles involved, but precious little hard information about the practicalities – like who sells it, exactly what models are available / required, and how much they cost. I went to a building exhibition where I talked to several suppliers. All took my details and promised to contact me to sort out a surey / quote. None have. I am beginning to think this is just a nice theory with nothing practical available. I wonder how difficult it would be to get service if it is so hard to buy in the first place. Fair comments

Hi Adrian. I myself am building a house in the Irish midlands at the moment and am also very anxious that it should be as energy efficient as reasonably possible and that as much energy as reasonably possible is obtained from renewable sources. Heat pumps theoretically return about 4kw for every 1kw input. In Ireland at the moment each kw costs about 0.15EURO, including taxes (about 0.104STG or 0.195USD) and this is expected to rise steeply over the coming years. That could make the running costs of a heat pump prohibitive, but that would depend on lots of other factors. What I intend to do is to make provision for a heat pump installation which can be linked into another central heating system at a later date by creating extra service entrances into the house through which heat pump piping can be routed and also by the use of underfloor heating which should lend itself to future heat pump use as well as an oil fired/other heat source for the moment. Naturally I intend to use as much insulation as is practicable, particularily in those areas that cannot easily have insulation added after the build is complete (floor and cavity wall insulation). You may find the following link to your Solar Trade Association useful. This suggests you could achieve 1150kwhr/m2/year (falling on the solar panel) in SW Ireland. http://www.greenenergy.org.uk/sta/solarenergy/ukresource.htm Best of luck. Mike.

Response:

Hi Mike

OK – a man after my own heart ! Heat pumps theoretically return about 4kw for every 1kw input. In Ireland at the moment each kw costs about 0.15EURO, including taxes (about 0.104STG or 0.195USD) and this is expected to rise steeply over the coming years. That could make the running costs of a heat pump prohibitive, but that would depend on lots of other factors.

I guess you’d expect the costs of other energy sources to also rise – bit of a guessing game, though, – isn’t it ? Any idea on the practical ‘yield’ from heatpumps ..? What I intend to do is to make provision for a heat pump installation which can be linked into another central heating system at a later date by creating extra service entrances into the house through which heat pump piping can be routed and also by the use of underfloor heating which should lend itself to future heat pump use as well as an oil fired/other heat source for the moment.

Yes – underfloor does seem the way to go (I wasn’t aware of it until a couple of weeks ago, but a house in the village was built with oil-fired underfloor heating last year – and we had a look round it. Very nice – no radiators

Yes – looking at timber-frame construction at the moment – seems to offer advantages in build speed and insulation…. The house in the village has a floor system which includes 6" of polystyrene….. You may find the following link to your Solar Trade Association useful. This suggests you could achieve 1150kwhr/m2/year (falling on the solar panel) in SW Ireland. http://www.greenenergy.org.uk/sta/solarenergy/ukresource.htm

That’s an interesting map. Suggests that insolation is about similar for SW Ireland to where we are now (Suffolk). Sounds as if solar for DHW is a possibility – I know it works very well over here (disregarding the payback period !) – looks as if we could do the smae over there. Hopefully looking at the area around Skibbereen / Bantry etc – though we’ll probably move over & rent for a little while before settling on a particular property or build location. Wonder where you are in the midlands ? How are you finding the build – are you doing the work yourself or organising subbies. I’m rubbish at brickwork, but reasonably good at everything else – though I expect there are restrictions on ‘enthusiastic amateurs’ doing things like electrical wiring ..? Still – need to sell our current place first – anybody want to buy a nice bungalow near the Suffolk coast on 1.75 acres, paddock, polytunnels, solar dhw, etc ??

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Mike

Although the costs of electricity generation will vary with the costs of whatever energy sources are being used there is an extra factor here in Ireland. Our ESB (Electricity Supply Board) is being prepared for privitisation. Up to about seven years ago we had pretty much the cheapest electricy in Europe – now it is amongst the most expensive. The cost of electricity will almost certainly rise to maximise the profits of the ESB and make it more attractive to investors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I intend to do is to make provision for a heat pump installation which can be linked into another central heating system at a later date by creating extra service entrances into the house through which heat pump piping can be routed and also by the use of underfloor heating which should lend itself to future heat pump use as well as an oil fired/other heat source for the moment. Yes – underfloor does seem the way to go (I wasn’t aware of it until a couple of weeks ago, but a house in the village was built with oil-fired underfloor heating last year – and we had a look round it. Very nice – no radiators

Although PV generated electricity driving a heat pump is pretty much a dream of mine, I don’t think it will be practical here for some time to come. Domestic Hot Water from solar does seem much more practical, particularly since heating water consumes so much electricity. I have fabricated a small (0.74sq m) solar panel for experimental purposes – I hope to have results later this year). One possible option… but please do your research carefully. I believe the ESB have a scheme whereby you can purchase off-peak electricity at a reduced rate, e.g. 50%. If this was used to run a heat pump at night then the running costs would be about 7.5 cents (Euro) per kw/hr consumed from the grid or a tad under 2 cents (Euro) for each kw/hr output from the heat pump (assuming a 1:4 input:output ratio for the heat pump). The heat pump could be used to heat the floor slab at night and give back the heat during the day. There would almost certainly have to be some top-up heating (from the heat pump or another source) during the following evening if not during the following day. I understand the ESB prefer to have electric heating elements buried in the floor slab but this would tie you to grid electricity for ever, and ever, and ever… Wonder where you are in the midlands ? How are you finding the build – are you doing the work yourself or organising subbies. I’m rubbish at brickwork, but reasonably good at everything else – though I expect there are restrictions on ‘enthusiastic amateurs’ doing things like electrical wiring ..?

I am building in Daingean, County Offaly, about halfway between Tullamore and Edenderry. I am doing as much of the build as possible myself. I’m no professional builder, but intend to take it as slow as necessary to get the quality I need. There are some things you should know… Unlike the UK, the Irish state does not return VAT (materials and services tax) to the self-builder. Here that amounts to 13.5% on concrete and 21% on pretty much everything else. Also, there are no grants from the state or others for renewable technology in the home. Here is a link to our Sustainable Energy Ireland site, which you may find useful http://www.sei.ie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Still – need to sell our current place first – anybody want to buy a nice bungalow near the Suffolk coast on 1.75 acres, paddock, polytunnels, solar dhw, etc ??

Response:

HI Mike Thanks for the reply – comments inline ……. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Mike

Ah – I see. I was hoping to escape this sort of lunacy – that’s why we’re doing the move to Ireland from the UK. Ah well – so long as they don’t privatise the Irish sense of humour….

No – PV still seems horrendously expensive – or is it that ‘mains’ electricity is still relatively cheap…? Domestic Hot Water from solar does seem much more practical, particularly since heating water consumes so much electricity. I have fabricated a small (0.74sq m) solar panel for experimental purposes – I hope to have results later this year).

What’s the construction of your panel ? Our installation here uses Thermomax evacuated tubes – seem to work very well – but they aren’t cheap to buy. I did play many years ago with using central heating radiators as collectors – they worked insofar as they heated water – but, at the time, the installation they were connected to wasn’t really suitable to see how well they worked. I’m guessing that your panel is a variation on the ‘pipe on a black surface’ idea …? One possible option… but please do your research carefully. I believe the ESB have a scheme whereby you can purchase off-peak electricity at a reduced rate, e.g. 50%. If this was used to run a heat pump at night then the running costs would be about 7.5 cents (Euro) per kw/hr consumed from the grid or a tad under 2 cents (Euro) for each kw/hr output from the heat pump (assuming a 1:4 input:output ratio for the heat pump). The heat pump could be used to heat the floor slab at night and give back the heat during the day. There would almost certainly have to be some top-up heating (from the heat pump or another source) during the following evening if not during the following day. I understand the ESB prefer to have electric heating elements buried in the floor slab but this would tie you to grid electricity for ever, and ever, and ever…

Hmm – like a giant ‘nightstore’ heater. My late parents had the conventional ‘nightstore’ heaters in their littl bungalow in Cornwall. Only trouble was, you needed to know how hot or cold tomorrow was going to be in order to acquire sufficieint heat overnight to ‘store’ for the next day. We don’t like our house to be too hot, anyway – and certainly not at night (allow the woodburner to go ‘out’ at night in all but the coldest conditions) – so I’m not sure that’s the right solution for us… but thanks for the suggestion. Wonder where you are in the midlands ? How are you finding the build – are you doing the work yourself or organising subbies. I’m rubbish at brickwork, but reasonably good at everything else – though I expect there are restrictions on ‘enthusiastic amateurs’ doing things like electrical wiring ..? I am building in Daingean, County Offaly, about halfway between Tullamore and Edenderry. I am doing as much of the build as possible myself. I’m no professional builder, but intend to take it as slow as necessary to get the quality I need.

That’s a good plan – at least then you’l be happy with the end result – and get a real sense of achievement. We’ll probably move into rented accomodation when we get over there – and either do a ‘self-build’ or buy ‘ready-made’ – if we can find the right property. If we do ‘self-build’ it’ll probably be managed by a builder with us doing the things that we’re good at – so not ‘self-build’ in your sense….. This plan seems to make sense on the grounds that a good local builder will know who the local tradesmen are, and will be able to organise them… There are some things you should know… Unlike the UK, the Irish state does not return VAT (materials and services tax) to the self-builder. Here that amounts to 13.5% on concrete and 21% on pretty much everything else. Also, there are no grants from the state or others for renewable technology in the home. Here is a link to our Sustainable Energy Ireland site, which you may find useful http://www.sei.ie

Thanks – bookmarked. Odd that there are no grants available – I’d got the impression that Ireland was fairly positive towards ‘green’ issues…. Thanks again for the info Adrian take out the papers and the trash to reply

Response:

Here’s some thoughts for your ground source heat pump questions. I spent much of the last year researching GSHP systems and had one installed in December (I live in Pennsylvania, USA). If I were to do it again, I would do it differently, but I’d still get a GSHP. First, my home is built on a hill which is essentially solid granite so there is very little water movement. The system I had installed is a closed loop system with vertical loops – they drill boreholes and put tubing down the holes. The ground heat "flows" in to supply heat to the fluid in the tubing, which then runs through a refrigerant cycle (either directly or via a heat exchanger depending on the design). Now, just like a normal air source heat pump, the effectiveness of the system decreases with the temperature. So a system you buy that is rated at "4-tons" may only actually produce 2-tons of heat if the ground temperature is below freezing. On the other hand, if the ground temperature is able to stay warm, say 50F all winter, then your 4-ton system may produce the full 4-tons of heat. The problem with the system I had installed was that the installers did not do their estimation right and after a little use, the ground would freeze, so that the system would produce very little heat. Note too that other GSHP installers I talked to do actually design their systems to put out the desired amount of heat capacity with ground temperature at freezing. This will help, but it’s really not the optimal solution. In fact, all closed loop systems will lower the temperature of the ground through the winter to some extent. This is normal. The key is to put in enough loops that the ground temperature never drops below a reasonable temperature, say 40F. As I said, if I were to do it again, I’d do it differently. The best efficiency is gained if you use an open loop system. that is, the ground temperature water is drawn from one well (that must be able to continuously supply about 2 gallons/minute per ton of heating capacity) then injected into another well (or pond etc.). In this way, the temperature of the "heat source" is always the ground temperature water and you’re not lowering the temperature of the water throughout the heating season. So, if you have a good well water supply that can provide maybe 10 gallons/minute all year long, you’re probably in good shape. Using such a system with ground water temperatures of around 50F will give you a system that will typically provide a COP of 3.5 to 4 depending on the system. COP is the number you were referring to – a COP of 4 will give you four watts of heat out for one watt of electricity in. This is all a very simplified description, but it should be enough to get you going. One more thing – from everything I’ve read, a radiant heating system will provide you with the most efficient and comfortable heating for your home. So rather than the ground source heat pump putting out hot air, you would use it to heat up a water tank. Then you use this hot water to heat your floors and your domestic hot water. If you can put solar on there too, you’re even better off. Best of luck.

Response:

One more thing, Since the mean winter temperature in Ireland is 4C, you might be just as well off using a normal air source heat pump. At 4C, you’ll get plenty of heat capacity from a normal air source heat pump and won’t have to go through the complexity and expense of a ground source heat pump.

Response:

TDI Using such a system with ground water temperatures of around 50F TDI will give you a system that will typically provide a COP of 3.5 to TDI 4 depending on the system. COP is the number you were referring to TDI – a COP of 4 will give you four watts of heat out for one watt of TDI electricity in. Here in California, four watts of heat from natural gas costs about the same as one watt of electricity. What are the relative rates in Ireland? Remember that to make that one watt of electricity, they have to burn fuel to make multiple watts of heat, then extract electricity from that heat. The process is governed by the same heat-engine equations that govern your GSHP. Inefficiency in the various stages — thermal to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, transmission, electrical to mechanical, mechanical to thermal again — usually overcome the leverage you have of pumping heat up from 4C to 32C (+10%) versus dropping heat in a turbine from 870 C to 100 C (-67%). My point is just that the physics make it inevitable that electricity will cost a lot more than fuel, and thus make heat pumps a marginal idea. They work great in places like Florida where the amount of heat needed per year is small, and the heat pump is needed anyway for refrigeration (A/C) for most of the year. I’m using unglazed plastic rooftop panels for heating the pool in my current house, and glazed metal rooftop panels for heating the house in the next one. The new system does not break even economically. I’m doing it because (a) it decouples the value of the house from the cost of fuel, and (b) I’d rather pay money to American labor to assemble stuff than pay slightly less money to folks in the mideast with a scary religious agenda.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TDI Using such a system with ground water temperatures of around 50F TDI will give you a system that will typically provide a COP of 3.5 to TDI 4 depending on the system. COP is the number you were referring to TDI – a COP of 4 will give you four watts of heat out for one watt of TDI electricity in. Here in California, four watts of heat from natural gas costs about the same as one watt of electricity. What are the relative rates in Ireland? Remember that to make that one watt of electricity, they have to burn fuel to make multiple watts of heat, then extract electricity from that heat. The process is governed by the same heat-engine equations that govern your GSHP. Inefficiency in the various stages — thermal to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, transmission, electrical to mechanical, mechanical to thermal again — usually overcome the leverage you have of pumping heat up from 4C to 32C (+10%) versus dropping heat in a turbine from 870 C to 100 C (-67%). My point is just that the physics make it inevitable that electricity will cost a lot more than fuel, and thus make heat pumps a marginal idea. They work great in places like Florida where the amount of heat needed per year is small, and the heat pump is needed anyway for refrigeration (A/C) for most of the year.

Your physics is quite right. But another point is the relative cost of heat in different forms of fuel. While it may take four watt-hours of heat to make one watt-hour of electricity, if the fuel used to generate that it is cheaper than the fuel you might use for direct heating, you can still come out ahead. If the electric is from coal, nuclear, hydro or wind, the per-watt-hour cost of electric can make heat pumps still attractive. For example, if residential natural gas costs $0.80 per therm (100 000 BTU), and you have a 90% efficient furnace, you pay $0.889 for 100 000 BTU delivered. If you have a heat pump operating with COP of 3.75, you would need about 7.8 kWhr of electricity to deliver the same 100 000 BTU. (1 therm is about 29.3 kWhr). If your electric is only $0.08 / kWhr, then the heat pump wins the day. daestrom

Response:

Daestrom Your physics is quite right. But another point is the relative Daestrom cost of heat in different forms of fuel. Daestrom While it may take four watt-hours of heat to make one watt-hour of Daestrom electricity, if the fuel used to generate that it is cheaper than Daestrom the fuel you might use for direct heating, you can still come out Daestrom ahead. But here’s the thing: the OP is building a house. These things have a lifetime of about a century (or 30 years here in the Bay Area, after which they get knocked down in a "remodel"). I wouldn’t want to bet on the relative cost of fuels in 30 years, because it’s so far out, and there is so much regulation that can change in that time. That said, though, it’s a lot more likely that the electric utility will figure out a way to use the cheapest fuel around, than your future homeowner. Score a point for the heat pump. I can’t find it right now, but I’ve seen a report on various solar water heaters which listed, among other things, the effective COP: in this case, the heat delivered divided by electrical energy used to run the pumps. The tests were done in Florida, and as you can imagine, the solar systems creamed heat pumps. IIRC, some systems had COPs in the mid-60s! It’s worth noting, though, that most did not. I would imagine that the challenge in Ireland is to collect heat when it’s cold outside. The efficiency curve for Heliodyne Gobi glazed panels is: x = (inlet_temp – outside_temp)/(radiation*0.317) efficiency = 0.737 – 0.804*x excuse the units: inlet and outside temp in degrees F, radiation in watts/m^2, efficiency tells how many of those watts end up in the water coming out of the panel. To make this useful to the OP: outside tank radiation eff California, Jan: 50 F 120 F 900 watts/m^2 0.540 Ireland, Jan, est: 35 F 120 F 800 watts/m^2 0.467 The latitude there is 54 N as opposed to 37 N here, so the collectors will have to be at more of an angle. My simulations indicate that the angle isn’t really that critical, but it’s probably more critical up there. At that latitude, it’s probably better to think of the panels as being wall mounted rather than being roof mounted. I spoke to the owners of a house nearby which was heated with glazed solar collectors. The system looked pretty beat up. In 30 years, it had the controller go once, both sensors failed once, and it froze three times. So, a failure every five years, half of which were real money to fix, but that half could have been avoided with anitfreeze. I spoke with a local solar contractor who, summarizing what he’s seen for 20 years, suggested that pumps eventually fail too. It seems like a solar system is more maintenance than a furnace, but if the OP is building the house himself I’d imagine the maintenance wouldn’t be too difficult, mostly a matter of getting the parts.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daestrom Your physics is quite right. But another point is the relative Daestrom cost of heat in different forms of fuel. Daestrom While it may take four watt-hours of heat to make one watt-hour of Daestrom electricity, if the fuel used to generate that it is cheaper than Daestrom the fuel you might use for direct heating, you can still come out Daestrom ahead. But here’s the thing: the OP is building a house. These things have a lifetime of about a century (or 30 years here in the Bay Area, after which they get knocked down in a "remodel"). I wouldn’t want to bet on the relative cost of fuels in 30 years, because it’s so far out, and there is so much regulation that can change in that time. That said, though, it’s a lot more likely that the electric utility will figure out a way to use the cheapest fuel around, than your future homeowner. Score a point for the heat pump.

Agreed. And the utility can invest in energy sources to generate cheap electricity that the typical home owner cannot. The fuels usable for heating is a much shorter list (oil, gas, coal, wood, biomass, solar) than for electric generation (add on hydro, wind, nuclear, to name a few). I think the heat pump leaves more options open. But the lifetime maintenance may be higher. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t find it right now, but I’ve seen a report on various solar water heaters which listed, among other things, the effective COP: in this case, the heat delivered divided by electrical energy used to run the pumps. The tests were done in Florida, and as you can imagine, the solar systems creamed heat pumps. IIRC, some systems had COPs in the mid-60s! It’s worth noting, though, that most did not. I would imagine that the challenge in Ireland is to collect heat when it’s cold outside. The efficiency curve for Heliodyne Gobi glazed panels is: x = (inlet_temp – outside_temp)/(radiation*0.317) efficiency = 0.737 – 0.804*x excuse the units: inlet and outside temp in degrees F, radiation in watts/m^2, efficiency tells how many of those watts end up in the water coming out of the panel. To make this useful to the OP: outside tank radiation eff California, Jan: 50 F 120 F 900 watts/m^2 0.540 Ireland, Jan, est: 35 F 120 F 800 watts/m^2 0.467 The latitude there is 54 N as opposed to 37 N here, so the collectors will have to be at more of an angle. My simulations indicate that the angle isn’t really that critical, but it’s probably more critical up there. At that latitude, it’s probably better to think of the panels as being wall mounted rather than being roof mounted.

Agreed. Althought they have a ‘mild’ climate thanks to the Gulf-Stream, they are really quite a was north compared to CONUS. I spoke to the owners of a house nearby which was heated with glazed solar collectors. The system looked pretty beat up. In 30 years, it had the controller go once, both sensors failed once, and it froze three times. So, a failure every five years, half of which were real money to fix, but that half could have been avoided with anitfreeze. I spoke with a local solar contractor who, summarizing what he’s seen for 20 years, suggested that pumps eventually fail too. It seems like a solar system is more maintenance than a furnace, but if the OP is building the house himself I’d imagine the maintenance wouldn’t be too difficult, mostly a matter of getting the parts.

Of course, heat pumps have maintenance issues too. And if the OP is intending to ‘retire’ there, they may get tired of maintenance that they have to do themselves. If it wasn’t a ’30-year’ home, then I’d bring up resale values as well daestrom

Response:

The latitude there is 54 N as opposed to 37 N here, so the collectors will have to be at more of an angle. My simulations indicate that the angle isn’t really that critical, but it’s probably more critical up there. At that latitude, it’s probably better to think of the panels as being wall mounted rather than being roof mounted. Agreed. Althought they have a ‘mild’ climate thanks to the Gulf-Stream, they are really quite a was north compared to CONUS.

Ireland is the same latitude as England. Panels on roofs are the best option. Parts of Ireland never get below freezing on many years. A temperate climate. It seems like a solar system is more maintenance than a furnace, but if the OP is building the house himself I’d imagine the maintenance wouldn’t be too difficult, mostly a matter of getting the parts. Of course, heat pumps have maintenance issues too. And if the OP is intending to ‘retire’ there, they may get tired of maintenance that they have to do themselves. If it wasn’t a ’30-year’ home, then I’d bring up resale values as well

Electrical items in many cases have no annual servicing which shouls be added to any equation. Only service on breakdowns. A heavily to superinulated home that only requires a very small heat input, may be more economical running the small heating system by electricity, even thought it cost 4 times as much to run than gas. Once the lack of an annual service is costed in it, it may be quite cheap to run. Also electrical equipment is generally cheaper to install than gas or oil equipment.

Response:

Hi Adrian. I have got some information on an installed Heat Pump with underfloor heating. The building is a dormer bungalow with concrete floors throughout. The floor area is about 2300 square feet. Heat Pump: There is about 300 meters (sorry for mixing measurement standards – just repeating what I have been told) of (sorry again) 2 inch plastic piping buried (!!!) 1 meter down and 1 meter apart. This is connected to a Thermia Diplomat model 10 heat pump. This has a rated input power of 3.6kW and a rated output capacity of 9.54/9.24 kW dependant upon output temperature at which the measurement is made (35 deg C/50 deg C) giving a Coefficient of Performance of 4.4/3.3. (This information from the manufacturer’s data sheet and doesn’t quite ‘add-up’ as far as I am concerned). Underfloor Heating. As both floors are concrete, there is also underfloor heating upstairs. This consists of a clear 1/2 inch PEX piping in the floor slab. Each room has its own temperature control. Living areas are set to 20 deg C, bedrooms to around 15 deg C and the bathroom to around 24 deg C. Having visited the house, I can say that it is very comfortable – neither noticably warm nor cool – and there are no draughts. Installation Costs I understand the total cost to be aound 15,000 Euro, of which 11,000 was for the heat pump and the other 4,000 for the underfloor heating. Seems expensive to me, but what do I know? Running Costs There has been several ‘mixups’ in the ESB bill and to date only one bill for 40 odd Euro has been received, so the exact cost is not known. However the owner was able to give the usage information from the heat pump controller. The system was switched-on at the end of September 2004 (new house build) and had 2509 running hours for home heating with a further 279 hours for domestic hot water in the 31 weeks to the beginning of May 2005. The system makes use of the a ‘night saver’ electricity supply between the hours of 11pm and 7am. This is about 46% of the standard cost. The supplier makes two claims: 1: That 60% of the total running hours will be ‘at night’, specifically during the ‘night saver’ period. 2: That about 30% of the useage during the 1st year will be due to the house drying out and that the true running costs will only be apparent in the second year and thereafter. Presenting the supplier with the usage information, the supplier estimates the actual running costs for the above installation for the 31 week period to be about 900 euro. Other From an earlier query, my self constructed solar panel is a serpentine

copper pipe soldered to copper sheet. This is fitted in a timer frame with a standard window glass on the front (or upper part) and has four inches of fiberglass insulation behind the copper sheet. There was a simple series of tests conducted yesterday at 16:30hrs (ambient around 17 deg C) – the panel conservatively produced 250W. Mike.

Response:

Using old batteries with new, not possible??

admin — Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

recently set up a very small solar power installation at home (until then we where absolutely without electricity) consisting of a 50W solar panel and a 12V 125Ah battery. When I was browsing prices before buying this I noticed (not for the first time) that wherever I turn they tell me that there is NO-Way I can buy some batteries noe and then add some more later on when I got more money. So I started thinking , and came up with the simplest solution one can imagine. But the people I’ve asked so far could not see anything wrong with my theory witch is this: (diagram at: http://www.new-haven.org/~sido/sidoblog/2004/09/using-old-batteries-w… ) I can’t see any way these two battery-banks could affect each-others performance with this setup, if somebody can prove otherwise please let me know. — Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law.

Response:

(diagram at:

http://www.new-haven.org/~sido/sidoblog/2004/09/using-old-batteries-w… ) I can’t see any way these two battery-banks could affect each-others performance with this setup, if somebody can prove otherwise please let me know.

Yes, I think that will work, and I think you only need the two diodes on the positive side of the batteries, and you have to use special Schottky Diodes or you will lose too much voltage. There are some problems with your setup: 1) There is no way to distribute the current from your two charging sources to keep both batteries charged. If there is wind and no light you charge one battery and if there is sunlight and no wind you charge the other battery. 2) There will always be some voltage and power loss from the diode drop and the resistance of the extra equipment. 3) You have added complexity to something that should be simple. To find out more, do a Google search on something like "battery isolation diodes". Diode battery isolation is nothing new or uncommon, so there is a world of information out there. Vaughn

Response:

http://www.new-haven.org/~sido/sidoblog/2004/09/using-old-batteries-w… Yes, I think that will work, and I think you only need the two diodes on the positive side of the batteries

I agree there. Ground is ground. 1) There is no way to distribute the current from your two charging sources to keep both batteries charged. If there is wind and no light you charge one battery and if there is sunlight and no wind you charge the other battery.

How about putting both of the charging sources into *one* buss, and from there, through diodes, to the battery banks? That would work. There would usually be voltage, and the batteries wouldn’t care from what. True, one might end up overpowering the other, the windmill probably overpowering the PV, but, then, if your biggest problem is that you have too much electricity coming in… Tricky thing might be needing to put load diversion on *BOTH* battery banks just in case, though, as some windmill types need it… DJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recently set up a very small solar power installation at home (until then we where absolutely without electricity) consisting of a 50W solar panel and a 12V 125Ah battery. When I was browsing prices before buying this I noticed (not for the first time) that wherever I turn they tell me that there is NO-Way I can buy some batteries noe and then add some more later on when I got more money. So I started thinking , and came up with the simplest solution one can imagine. But the people I’ve asked so far could not see anything wrong with my theory witch is this: (diagram at: http://www.new-haven.org/~sido/sidoblog/2004/09/using-old-batteries-w… ) I can’t see any way these two battery-banks could affect each-others performance with this setup, if somebody can prove otherwise please let me know.

I did something similar with a bank of random smaller batteries of different sizes,and ages(largest is 17AH.) and a few diodes. I found that a bridge rectifier has everything you need for 2 batteries,just hook it up. connect all gnds together.(common gnd) The two ~ (ac) terminals go to the the + of each batt. The + of the rectifer is your output(to loads),and the – is your charge input (solar,wind). For something large like car batteries,you’d need a large bridge rectifier,But you could make one out of 4 large diodes. (1 pair per batt) One small drawback is that the diodes will drop a bit of voltage,so your output will be a bit lower than the batteries (about 0.7V for most diodes) I actually used a bunch of high current schottky/fast diodes,which have about half the voltage drop..(~0.3V)

Response:

You will definately require a diode isolator; otherwise, you will have charging problems with different batteries, especially if they are different plate formulations and capcities. The key will be to apply the correct temperature compensated charging voltages, as recommended by the battery manufacturers, directly across the battery posts. For more information on increasing battery capacity, please see Section 7.3 in the Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ on www.batteryfaq.org. Kindest regards, BiLL…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -recently set up a very small solar power installation at home (until then we where absolutely without electricity) consisting of a 50W solar panel and a 12V 125Ah battery. When I was browsing prices before buying this I noticed (not for the first time) that wherever I turn they tell me that there is NO-Way I can buy some batteries noe and then add some more later on when I got more money. So I started thinking , and came up with the simplest solution one can imagine. But the people I’ve asked so far could not see anything wrong with my theory witch is this: (diagram at: http://www.new-haven.org/~sido/sidoblog/2004/09/using-old-batteries-w… ) I can’t see any way these two battery-banks could affect each-others performance with this setup, if somebody can prove otherwise please let me know.

Response:

America Falls Behind In Solar Technology

admin — Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

The only problem with solar cells is that they sell at $10/watt within a module and need to sell at $1.00/watt to be competitive with fossile fuel derived cells.

Ten bucks a Watt? Maybe if you buy them from the Pentagon. :-) Here http://www.sunelec.com/Clearance/Solar_Modules/blemishesolar_modules1… $2 a Watt if you’re a savvy shopper. Wayne

Response:

Current cost of outfitting one average sized house with enough solar panels (in a moderate climate) capable of supporting a modest enery requirement: $70,000.

Nonsense. Wayne www.citlink.net/~wmbjk

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.? Give you a hint; It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000. Horrifying, isn’t it? Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions So, solar panels totalling 316 miles on a side? Yes, I can see that being very possible in the next, oh, million years. Right after they build the first mile wide nuclear reactor and land a crew of 100 on Pluto. Why don’t the enviro-wackos admit; Once oil runs low we will move toward the only product capable of replacing oil at anything near it’s cost; Methanol. There are already mandates for 10% methanol content in gas in Canada within a few years and I suspect the U.S. will follow suit. -Rich

I don’t believe that the US can grow enough Corn to fuel our cars completely with methanol. Methonal is more useful as an oxidizer. It could be useful in fuel cells. "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.? Give you a hint; It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000. Horrifying, isn’t it? -Rich Actualy its much smaller. Each square meter recives about 800 watts of sun and solar cells can easily extracted 14% of this. A 10m x 10m or 100sqm roof collecting area with 20% efficient cells will collect 100kw.hr on a sunny day. This is enough to meet all the domestic AND commerical/industrial needs of a family of 4. The output of the cells will fall to 22% on days that are completely overcast with heavy rain cloud but this is more than enough to meet the domesitic needs for heating, cooking and lighting with a small amount left over. I calculate that 64KW.Hr will be needed to make transporatation hydrogen. (on the basis that the US used 8L gasoline per day per person and that each liter contains 8lw.Hr of energy) I calculate that 37KW.Hr will be needed to provide electricity (this is the USA’s per capita consumption rate as given by the CIA world fact book) I calcualte that another 20kW wqill be needed per person per day to replace natural gas, althout much of this is used to generate electricity. A total of 120KW.Hr per person per day. Most nations could do this with half the amount of energy consumption. Lets assume only 60KW.Hr is required due to efficiency increases. As a square meter of 10% efficient solar cells can generate about 0.6KW.Hr per day. This means we need 100sqm per person. For the US with 3 x 10^8 people this means 3 x 10^9 sqm. So I come up with a square 55km/side or 77km/side if 120kW.Hrs is required. It could easily be put together by putting solar cells on roofs alone. The only problem with solar cells is that they sell at $10/watt within a module and need to sell at $1.00/watt to be competitive with fossile fuel derived cells. Some people calim they are already cost effective becuase the manufacturers like Siemens offer 25 year guarnatees and as they are likely to last 100 years with less than a 20% fall of in output they will break even after about 50. Solar thermal hot water systems are already competitive but many people are diappointed becuase so many poorly desigend systems have failed due to water leaks and corrosion.

Current cost of outfitting one average sized house with enough solar panels (in a moderate climate) capable of supporting a modest enery requirement: $70,000. Meanwhile, computer processors are about to crack the 100w dissipation barrier. Solar panels are NO WHERE good enough in any sense to replace hydro, coal, nuclear, gasoline, diesel or even propane. -Rich

Response:

So, solar panels totalling 316 miles on a side? Yes, I can see that being very possible in the next, oh, million years. Right after they build the first mile wide nuclear reactor and land a crew of 100 on Pluto. Why don’t the enviro-wackos admit; Once oil runs low we will move toward the only product capable of replacing oil at anything near it’s cost; Methanol. There are already mandates for 10% methanol content in gas in Canada within a few years and I suspect the U.S. will follow suit. -Rich

Response:

It’s a generalized principle, not a ‘law’. Sometimes market forces move prices to were supply & demand are equal, sometimes they don’t. Karl Johanson

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? Do conservatives like you understand that there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand?

What does the term "there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand" mean? Economist and those who take a course in economics believe that the law of supply and demand is central to the study of economics.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? Do conservatives like you understand that there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand? That corporations make their living from modifying both of these, and including risk, and expectations for the future? And second, let me suggest that this political position is not conservative, it is without merit, and the position commented on is not particularly liberal, democratic (as in the party), nor is it necessary to identify the group or party most associated with it in order to address the issues of substance associated with it. The issues of substance, are solar cells in Japan cheaper? Is power more expensive? Who is installing the systems and what makes them a better buy there than here? Is this a result of our economy going into the tank? It would be interesting to see what the growth rates are.

The growth rates in the US are certainly higher then Japan and Germany by a factor of 10. In 2002, a recession year for the US, the US growth rate was 2.4% for the same year it was .2% for both Japan and Germany. I suspect that economics will remain a mystery for vast sectors of the population. "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

If solar pays for THEM, it’s worth further investment HERE.

Subsidies plus PC brainwashing. Also once they’re up it is too late to rethink and actually cost effective to keep them there. This may mislead others.

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand?

Do conservatives like you understand that there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand? That corporations make their living from modifying both of these, and including risk, and expectations for the future? And second, let me suggest that this political position is not conservative, it is without merit, and the position commented on is not particularly liberal, democratic (as in the party), nor is it necessary to identify the group or party most associated with it in order to address the issues of substance associated with it. The issues of substance, are solar cells in Japan cheaper? Is power more expensive? Who is installing the systems and what makes them a better buy there than here? Is this a result of our economy going into the tank? It would be interesting to see what the growth rates are.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? After trying to tinker with it for nearly a century with wage-and-price controls and rent controls and price supports, will liberals ever understand the basic immutability of that law? The reason why solar power is more attractive in other countries is that their fossil fuel costs are higher. The reason why gas-guzzling SUVs are more attractive in America than in other countries is that our gasoline prices are lower. See how that works now?

Some of them do … so they’re scheming to artificially inflate the price of fossil fuels here. That way they can FORCE their ‘renewable energy’ schemes upon us. If solar-electric is twice as expensive as natural-gas, double or triple the price of natural gas. That’s their ’logic’ … and if it runs the economy into a ditch, all the better – our just punishment for being successful.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.? Give you a hint; It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000. Horrifying, isn’t it? Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles. You are assuming that the sun shines 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

False. If I had been doing that I might have said something like 0.10 conversion of 1,000 W/m^2, rather than 0.05 conversion of 250 W/m^2. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.? Give you a hint; It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000. Horrifying, isn’t it? -Rich

Actualy its much smaller. Each square meter recives about 800 watts of sun and solar cells can easily extracted 14% of this. A 10m x 10m or 100sqm roof collecting area with 20% efficient cells will collect 100kw.hr on a sunny day. This is enough to meet all the domestic AND commerical/industrial needs of a family of 4. The output of the cells will fall to 22% on days that are completely overcast with heavy rain cloud but this is more than enough to meet the domesitic needs for heating, cooking and lighting with a small amount left over. I calculate that 64KW.Hr will be needed to make transporatation hydrogen. (on the basis that the US used 8L gasoline per day per person and that each liter contains 8lw.Hr of energy) I calculate that 37KW.Hr will be needed to provide electricity (this is the USA’s per capita consumption rate as given by the CIA world fact book) I calcualte that another 20kW wqill be needed per person per day to replace natural gas, althout much of this is used to generate electricity. A total of 120KW.Hr per person per day. Most nations could do this with half the amount of energy consumption. Lets assume only 60KW.Hr is required due to efficiency increases. As a square meter of 10% efficient solar cells can generate about 0.6KW.Hr per day. This means we need 100sqm per person. For the US with 3 x 10^8 people this means 3 x 10^9 sqm. So I come up with a square 55km/side or 77km/side if 120kW.Hrs is required. It could easily be put together by putting solar cells on roofs alone. The only problem with solar cells is that they sell at $10/watt within a module and need to sell at $1.00/watt to be competitive with fossile fuel derived cells. Some people calim they are already cost effective becuase the manufacturers like Siemens offer 25 year guarnatees and as they are likely to last 100 years with less than a 20% fall of in output they will break even after about 50. Solar thermal hot water systems are already competitive but many people are diappointed becuase so many poorly desigend systems have failed due to water leaks and corrosion.

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.? Give you a hint; It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000. Horrifying, isn’t it? Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles.

You are assuming that the sun shines 24 hours a day 365 days a year. It don’t do that even here in sunny So Cal. "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.? Give you a hint; It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000. Horrifying, isn’t it? -Rich

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.? Give you a hint; It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000. Horrifying, isn’t it?

Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand?

Sure. Subsidize the price of oil with wars and military spending in the middle east. With the price of oil subsidized(supply) , Americans drive gas hog SUVs (demand). After trying to tinker with it for nearly a century with wage-and-price controls and rent controls and price supports, will liberals ever understand the basic immutability of that law?

It was Nixon who last tried price controls. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason why solar power is more attractive in other countries is that their fossil fuel costs are higher. The reason why gas-guzzling SUVs are more attractive in America than in other countries is that our gasoline prices are lower. subsidized. See how that works now? — Steven L.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology. But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. Yet more proof, that anytime you vote for a Republican you are voting to take America backwards. Think about it. I bought my house new in 1985. It came with a complex solar assisted water heating system. The roof unit started leaking in 1998. I asked how much it would cost to replace it and the answer was $2,500. I chose not to replace it at that time. To the best of my calculations the unit saved me around $150 per month. If I were to replace it today at that $2,500 amount and assuming that it wouldn’t break down again it would take 139 years for me to break even on the deal.

that is $1.50 obivously. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Fuel prices may be high enough in Germany and Japan to make wide spread solar usage economical but not where I live. Let me know when It becomes cheaper then the current system. Abel Malcolm www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51… President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy. Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips. But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president. To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

"I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology. But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. He thinks it would be nice *if* the oil industry found solar panels offensive, for that would be a sign that they compete with oil. Since the US federal government takes, in effect, more profit by taxing oil and gas than any private outfit that produces them takes in profits as such, another plausible way to look at this is that the "oil president" of the pair was Carter. This would be in keeping with their respective attitudes towards nuclear energy.

France gets something like 90% of their electricity from nuclear now. But you’ll notice, this is one time that liberals like AbelMalcolm are *NOT* saying that Europe is ahead of us and we need to catch up! — Steven L.

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.

Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? After trying to tinker with it for nearly a century with wage-and-price controls and rent controls and price supports, will liberals ever understand the basic immutability of that law? The reason why solar power is more attractive in other countries is that their fossil fuel costs are higher. The reason why gas-guzzling SUVs are more attractive in America than in other countries is that our gasoline prices are lower. See how that works now? — Steven L.

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.

Well, let’s see how they work out for the Japanese and Germans. Solar-power setups aren’t exactly CHEAP you know … the cell arrays cost big bucks plus you’ve gotta have power storage and converters so you can get properly phased 110/220vac. Weather-wise, both of those countries would make good test cases … they don’t get 365.25 days of perfect sunshine every year. Plenty of cloudy days. If solar pays for THEM, it’s worth further investment HERE.

Response:

I bought my house new in 1985. It came with a complex solar assisted water heating system. The roof unit started leaking in 1998. I asked how much it would cost to replace it and the answer was $2,500. I chose not to replace it at that time. To the best of my calculations the unit saved me around $150 per month. If I were to replace it today at that $2,500 amount and assuming that it wouldn’t break down again it would take 139 years for me to break even on the deal. Fuel prices may be high enough in Germany and Japan to make wide spread solar usage economical but not where I live. Let me know when It becomes cheaper then the current system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Abel Malcolm www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51… President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy. Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips. But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president. To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg

Response:

He thinks it would be nice *if* the oil industry found solar panels offensive, for that would be a sign that they compete with oil. Since the US federal government takes, in effect, more profit by taxing oil and gas than any private outfit that produces them takes in profits as such, another plausible way to look at this is that the "oil president" of the pair was Carter. This would be in keeping with their respective attitudes towards nuclear energy. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

Response:

I will make this real simple for you to understand. I will install a solar panel on my house when it saves me more money than it cost. I will never install a solar panel on my house when the cost of installing the darn thing, means that I may be long gone from this earth before I ever recover the cost of the installation and maintenance. And yes, I did check into the idea of installing a solar panel.

www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51… L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy. Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips. But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president. To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology. But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. Yet more proof, that anytime you vote for a Republican you are voting to take America backwards. Think about it. Abel Malcolm www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51… President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy. Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips. But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president. To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg

Response:

Installing Solar Panels In New Construction

admin — Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

whats OTOH?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all- We’re building a house and are planning on installing solar PV panels as well as solar hot water collector panels on the roof. I’ve had a few people suggest installing the panels on the roof *before* the roofing material and shingling around the panels. My questions: 1. Is this a good idea (ever)? 2. Can you do this will any type of solar panel? 3. What is more susceptible to leaking: a) solar panels built into the roof, or; b) solar panels mounted on top of a roof? (or does it all depend on the installation?) I can see where building the panels into the roof might save a little money on shingles, but it seems that increased labor costs would eat up any savings in materials. OTOH, I am assuming that solar panels, when mounted on an existing roof, require holes to be drilled through the roof which I would think increases the likelihood of the roof leaking. kickaha

Response:

Hi, all- We’re building a house and are planning on installing solar PV panels as well as solar hot water collector panels on the roof. I’ve had a few people suggest installing the panels on the roof *before* the roofing material and shingling around the panels. My questions: 1. Is this a good idea (ever)? 2. Can you do this will any type of solar panel? 3. What is more susceptible to leaking: a) solar panels built into the roof, or; b) solar panels mounted on top of a roof? (or does it all depend on the installation?) I can see where building the panels into the roof might save a little money on shingles, but it seems that increased labor costs would eat up any savings in materials. OTOH, I am assuming that solar panels, when mounted on an existing roof, require holes to be drilled through the roof which I would think increases the likelihood of the roof leaking. kickaha

Response:

If the solar collector is designed for this type of installation, it can be neater looking and save on roofing material costs. 2. Can you do this will any type of solar panel?

No. Some types of solar collectors – particularly tubular evacuated glass tube collectors – would leak badly when it rained, and cannot substitute for roofing. 3. What is more susceptible to leaking: a) solar panels built into the roof, or; b) solar panels mounted on top of a roof? (or does it all depend on the installation?)

Depends on installation. A proper installation, whether built into the roof (like a skylight) or mounted on top will not leak. I can see where building the panels into the roof might save a little money on shingles, but it seems that increased labor costs would eat up any savings in materials. OTOH, I am assuming that solar panels, when mounted on an existing roof, require holes to be drilled through the roof which I would think increases the likelihood of the roof leaking. kickaha

I mounted a mast for a tv antenna on my roof, drilling a hole through the shingles and anchoring the base with a lagbolt – and sealing it with silicone caulk. 10 years later, and still no leaks. Plumbing vent pipes and metal chimneys are punched through roofing, but with proper use of metal and rubber flashing they can be leak free. CM

Response:

whats OTOH?

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/ http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/OTOH.html OTOH // [Usenet; very common] On The Other Hand. Hi, all-

Hi We’re building a house and are planning on installing solar PV panels as well as solar hot water collector panels on the roof. I’ve had a few people suggest installing the panels on the roof *before* the roofing material and shingling around the panels. My questions: 1. Is this a good idea (ever)?

It can be an OK idea. Your mileage may vary. You will save the costs of the shingles and solar panel mounts. You will likely have labor costs for the installation of both shingles and PV panels anyhow so combining the two into a single step may save some money. 2. Can you do this will any type of solar panel?

It works better if you use solar panels that are designed for this task. Look for "building integrated" solar panels such as the Uni-Solar stuff. Some random links found using google. http://www.uni-solar.com/bipv_resid.html http://atlantisenergy.com/atlhome/product.htm http://www.powerlight.com/products/product_details.cfm?product_id=23 http://www.solarwall.com/roof/roof.html http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/863/bipv/documents/ieeeFNL.pdf http://www.energotech.gr/solar3.htm http://www.ntb.ch/TT/Labors/EMS/solar_window.html 3. What is more susceptible to leaking: a) solar panels built into the roof, or; b) solar panels mounted on top of a roof? (or does it all depend on the installation?)

It all depends on the installation, panels and type of roof. I can see where building the panels into the roof might save a little money on shingles, but it seems that increased labor costs would eat up any savings in materials. OTOH, I am assuming that solar panels, when mounted on an existing roof, require holes to be drilled through the roof which I would think increases the likelihood of the roof leaking.

It depends on the technology you are using. For instance, the standing seam panels from Uni-Solar are 9 to 18 feet long. You can also get the field applied laminate and stick it to any size roofing panels that are larger than these dimensions. All of their connectors are on one end. This end is typically mounted at the roof peak. This is not going to require a lot of holes in the roof and seems unlikely to leak. This is also likely to be somewhat more durable and longer lasting than the typical asphalt shingle. Anthony

Response:

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/o/OTOH.html

Response:

Hi Edward; whats OTOH?

An an acronym: OTOH = On The Other Hand http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Duane — Home of the $35 LED solar tracker. http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3 CUL8ER \ Receiver Powered by \ [*] Thermonuclear SolarEnergyfrom the Sun /////| Energy(the Sun) \ / / // / /| / / / / / / | WA0VBE / / / / / / /| Ziggy / / / / / / | / / / / \ / / / | "Red Rock Energy" === === / / === / === Duane C. Johnson, Designer=== === === / | 1825 Florence St Mirrors,Heliostats,Controls & Mounts| White Bear Lake, Minnesota / | USA 55110-3364 | (651)635-5O65 work / | (651)426-4766 home use Courier New Font | (413)556-659O Fax copyright / | (651)583-2O62 Red Rock Energy Site (C)980907 === | http://www.redrok.com/index.htm (My New Web site) | These are my opinions, and not that of Unisys Corp. ===

Response:

The shape of mounting brackets makes flashing an exercise in futility. What you should do is have square pitch boxes fabricated at a metal shop. Mount those to the roof. Cut through the bottom of the pitch box, mount the brackets to your structural members, and fill the pitch boxes with hot tar. Then counter flash the pitch box.

Response:

The best I have seen are the field applied standing seam PV panels from Unisolar. Finding a roofing sub contractor to your prime building contractor that can apply these may be a challenge though. http://www.uni-solar.com/bipv_resid_field_appl.html

Response:

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want it to look better, a "built-in" look might be preferable to something just sitting on the roof. OTOH-it might make it more diffiuclt to do whatever maintanence might be required, or to repair a roof leak should it occur down the road. 2. Can you do this will any type of solar panel? 3. What is more susceptible to leaking: a) solar panels built into the roof, or; b) solar panels mounted on top of a roof? (or does it all depend on the installation?)

I doubt there is sufficient evidence to make a determination on something like this. Until hundreds of thousands of such installations exist for dozens of years, there is no way to really tell. The installation issue is a major kicker in the pants as well. There are very few people with any substantial experience in this type of installation, so getting someone that has put in a few hundred of them is going to be difficult. I can see where building the panels into the roof might save a little money on shingles, but it seems that increased labor costs would eat up any savings in materials. OTOH, I am assuming that solar panels, when mounted on an existing roof, require holes to be drilled through the roof which I would think increases the likelihood of the roof leaking. kickaha

Shingles are pretty cheap compared to the solar panels. The few dollars saved in materials is insignificant, compared to the extra labor, and probably the extra materials required to put the panels in. I think it boils down to this – if you want to build them in, get someone who has done it many times before. Get many references from the installer and call the references and see what they have to say. Ask the references if they know of anyone else who has done this and call them. In the end, you will probably have to make a judgement call, and live with the results.

Response:

Edward C. wrote whats OTOH?

…..On The Other Hand….. HTH (Hope This Helps) Caroline xxx

Response:

I remember when Reagan took office he had all the panels removed from the roof of the Whitehouse that Carter installed. What if one of the Reagan’s or Bush’s are interested in buying your home, and they can’t remove the panels? Retrofit gives you more options. — All the best, www.iwantsolar.com

Response:

… What if someone buys your house and they don’t like the kitchen sink or counter? What if they don’t like the lime green toilet or want to change the wood shingles for concrete ones? Anything in a house can be changed, removed, rebuilt or remodeled. All it takes it money and/or time. Potentially, a well installed and attractive looking solar system could be an asset and may increase the selling price of the house. A poorly installed and ugly one may not, even if it does the job perfectly well. Personally, I’ve never been fond of the whole "your house is an investment" idea that the real estate folks like to push. Yes, you may sell your house at some point but is it worth it to live in a house that is designed to fit the lowest common denominator or which someone else tells you other people want in a home? In my experience, the homes that obtain the highest selling prices are ones which a person used their own personal style, ideas, taste, desires, loves and passion when designing and building. Anthony

Response:

In my experience, the homes that obtain the highest selling prices are ones which a person used their own personal style, ideas, taste, desires, loves and passion when designing and building.

I’m a Real Estate Agent AND a Solar Contractor and I can tell you that unless the seller has neutral tastes, that’s not the case. The wierd one’s take alot longer to sell. — All the best, www.iwantsolar.com

Response:

In my experience, the homes that obtain the highest selling prices are ones which a person used their own personal style, ideas, taste, desires, loves and passion when designing and building. I’m a Real Estate Agent AND a Solar Contractor and I can tell you that unless the seller has neutral tastes, that’s not the case. The wierd one’s take alot longer to sell.

Hmm, I just finished buying a house. The "wierd ones" are the ones that I called my agent, said "Schedule a visit", and by the time he got on the phone to schedule a visit, it was sold. There was one cute little house that had been modified by the owner to have tile floors throughout (no carpet in the bedrooms is supposed to detract from the selling price, right?), radiant floor heating, etc., and by the time we went to make an offer the house had already sold for $4,000 above the asking price. In fact, on a per-square-foot basis it sold for more than any other house in that neighborhood this year. Now, granted, if you’re going to put purple countertops and green bathroom fixtures it’ll take longer to sell. But I don’t think we were talking about that. — BadTux News’n'Views: http://news.badtux.net —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

There was one cute little house that had been modified by the owner to have tile floors throughout (no carpet in the bedrooms is supposed to detract from the selling price, right?), radiant floor heating, etc., and by the time we went to make an

Tile throughout sells well in Florida anyway. People with kids and pets love tile. offer the house had already sold for $4,000 above the asking price. In fact, on a per-square-foot basis it sold for more than any other house in that neighborhood this year.

These days finding a buyer for any decent home is easy. Now let’s see them get it financed. If it doesn’t appraise high enough, the seller may have to lower the price. If you really like the house and have a larger down payment than the other buyer, you may still have a chance at the house. Keep in touch with the seller. Prices are SO jacked up in South Florida, getting a high enough appriasal to obtain financing is becoming a major problem. I had a Condo that was "sold" twice at $159.900. Both fell through and a South American walked in with $127,000 cash and got it. — All the best, www.iwantsolar.com

Response:

I’m in Arizona. I’m thinking of putting tile throughout in my current house, but mostly because of my allergies. Tile in living areas is common here, either travertine tile or saltillo tile being the most common, but tile in bedrooms for some reason is not desired here. offer the house had already sold for $4,000 above the asking price. In fact, on a per-square-foot basis it sold for more than any other house in that neighborhood this year. These days finding a buyer for any decent home is easy. Now let’s see them get it financed. If it doesn’t appraise high enough, the seller may have to lower the price. If you really like the house and have a larger down payment than the other buyer, you may still have a chance at the house. Keep in touch with the seller.

Uhm, I already bought a house. Like I said, "I just bought a house". The house I bought is larger and better built, but has a smaller back yard. It needed a little more work, but that just gives me an excuse to dust off rusty old skills from a childhood spent assisting my father and grandfather in their projects. Prices are SO jacked up in South Florida, getting a high enough appriasal to obtain financing is becoming a major problem. I had a Condo that was "sold" twice at $159.900. Both fell through and a South American walked in with $127,000 cash and got it.

Ouch. Yeah, the same deal is happening in some neighborhoods here in Arizona. Housing has appreciated at 9% so far this year, far beyond what it should given that the local economy sucks. But people are seeing 30 year loans at 5.99%, saying "Why am I renting?!", and jumping into the housing market, and of course that drives up prices. I was rather amused to see the gyrations that the bank’s appraiser had to go through in order to find comparables that would justify the selling price on this home. The problem is that this is a little infill "pocket neighborhood" of fairly sizable well built homes in the middle of a neighborhood of much smaller/less well-built homes that had been built 5 years earlier, so he had to go to neighborhoods over a mile away in order to find comparables that would justify the selling price (which he did — with a whopping $100 to spare . — BadTux News’n'Views: http://news.badtux.net —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

so he had to go to neighborhoods over a mile away in order to find comparables that would justify the selling price (which he did — with a whopping $100 to spare .

What the banks get when they play that game is incresed forclosure rates. Then heads roll, and they go in the opposite direction. Go figure? According to a recent Consumer Reports article, Tuscon was named as being 15-20% overpriced. Miami/Ft. Lauderdale was 31-48% over the incomes in those areas! I saw lots of Solar Water in Sedona, and I’d love to spend a few years there, but the prices! — All the best, www.iwantsolar.com

Response:

whats OTOH?

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/ http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/OTOH.html OTOH // [Usenet; very common] On The Other Hand. Hi, all-

Response:

so he had to go to neighborhoods over a mile away in order to find comparables that would justify the selling price (which he did — with a whopping $100 to spare .

Response:

whats OTOH?

Response:

Hi Edward; whats OTOH?

Response:

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/o/OTOH.html

Response:

Edward C. wrote whats OTOH?

…..On The Other Hand….. HTH (Hope This Helps) Caroline xxx

Response:

If the solar collector is designed for this type of installation, it can be neater looking and save on roofing material costs. 2. Can you do this will any type of solar panel?

Response:

In my experience, the homes that obtain the highest selling prices are ones which a person used their own personal style, ideas, taste, desires, loves and passion when designing and building.

Response:

Roof and ladder question

admin — Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I have ladder attached to my RV roof. The ladder spans out into a rack on the roof. A screw holding one of the mounts on the roof is stripped. The RV has a rubber roof. Is there something I could use to fill the hole with so the screw will hold again? I didn’t want to use anything that might damage the rubber roof. Craig

Response:

definately low tech- I just use wooden farmer matches. Fill the hole with silicone caulk, shove in as many matches as will fill the hole, drive in the screw. Wipe down and put another drop of sealant over the screw head.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have ladder attached to my RV roof. The ladder spans out into a rack on

Response:

I agree with the wooden match sticks. Most any piece of wood will do. But, don’t use silicone caulk. The RV dealer has special caulk for the rubber roof. It is made by Dicor for the rubber roof. Fill up the hole with the caulk, push in the sticks of wood, put a dab of caulk on top of the wood and then run the screw in. definately low tech- I just use wooden farmer matches. Fill the hole with silicone caulk, shove in as many matches as will fill the hole, drive in the screw. Wipe down and put another drop of sealant over the screw head. I have ladder attached to my RV roof. The ladder spans out into a rack on

–

Response:

I’ll third the toothpick solution- I would coat a dowel or toothpick with wood glue- then stick it in the hole, let it dry, screw the ladder back down, and caulk with Dicor (no silicone). The other way I do it in a situation like this is to use a kind of pop rivet which expands like a toggle bolt- but they are hard to find. — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

Response:

Wood golf tee. Put glue on the tee, tap it in, cut it flush. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have ladder attached to my RV roof. The ladder spans out into a rack on the roof. A screw holding one of the mounts on the roof is stripped. The RV has a rubber roof. Is there something I could use to fill the hole with so the screw will hold again? I didn’t want to use anything that might damage the rubber roof. Craig

Response:

Wood golf tee. Put glue on the tee, tap it in, cut it flush. Craig

While round toothpicks are my plugs of choice, one has to be careful with them – or with matchsticks or golf tees – or you could split the wood when replacing the screw. I speak from experience. I don’t even use glue – I just stuff in toothpicks until they don’t stuff easily. Easily, I say. However, if I’m doing this to an exterior screwhole, I do squirt silicone sealer into the hole before stuffing in the toothpicks. I like toothpicks because they’re small, and will fill most any screwhole just right – you just use more of them. Stick one in, break it off. Keep doing that until one doesn’t go in easily. Throw that one away, and put the screw in. — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.

Response:

Wood golf tee. Put glue on the tee, tap it in, cut it flush. Craig

I would use the rubber plugs that come with the solar panel installation kits.The are about 3/8 " round and 1/2" long and have a nut molded in the end. The upper part of the plug has a rubber flange.You insert into the hole and insert a small bolt into the nut and tighten up.This will pull the nut up and expand the rubber plug real tight and water prove. I mounted my solar panel with these and it is tight and does not move. Gerry While round toothpicks are my plugs of choice, one has to be careful with them – or with matchsticks or golf tees – or you could split the wood when replacing the screw. I speak from experience. I don’t even use glue – I just stuff in toothpicks until they don’t stuff easily. Easily, I say. However, if I’m doing this to an exterior screwhole, I do squirt silicone sealer into the hole before stuffing in the toothpicks. I like toothpicks because they’re small, and will fill most any screwhole just right – you just use more of them. Stick one in, break it off. Keep doing that until one doesn’t go in easily. Throw that one away, and put the screw in. — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.

Response:

Maxx Air vs. Fantastic Fan?

admin — Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’m considering a better fan for the rig. Maxx Air’s Turbo/Maxx Deluxe 1200T 12V Ceiling Fan with Thermostat looks easier to install then the Fan-Tastic Ceiling Fan Vent which would require removal of the existing vent. Any comments would be appreciated.

I have a Maxx-Air, 2 friends have Fantastic Fans. I installed mine in about 3 hours, but I’m a bit anal-rententive about doing a good-looking job. The outside part is easy, but the siting of controls and wiring can be a bi%$h. (However, the wiring would be an equal pain for either.) It has a 2-year warrenty. It took them all afternoon to get theirs in, but once they’re in, it is a nice clean installation. They run theirs inside of Maxx-Air covers to handle the rain problem. I don’t think there is much difference in terms of who moves the most air. In a small camper, either will suck a thought out of your head. In a bigger camper, the increased volume makes is seems like less air is moving. One thing I can say for the FF is that it is quiet. My Maxx-Air isn’t too noisey, but it is decidedly more noisy than the FF. One interesting note, especially for the boondockers. Maxx-Air now makes a Solar-Maxx, which is a Maxx-Air with a small solar panel attached so that you aren’t draining your batteries by running it during the day. Bill Seward http://web.northstate.net/~seward

Response:

I selected the Maxxair for my rig for two main reasons. One, it moves a LOT more air than a Fantastic Fan. Second, I can use it in the rain. This

last Has anyone actually used BOTH in ONE camper and been able to tell which "moved the most air"? The Fantastic Fans I’ve had can suck off a toupee. I’m wondering if I’ll need to drag the dog off the screen if I put in a Maxxair.

Response:

I selected the Maxxair for my rig for two main reasons. One, it moves a LOT more air than a Fantastic Fan. Second, I can use it in the rain. This last part is very important to me. I can’t imagine sitting in a muggy summer rain storm without some ventilation.

I don’t know why people keep saying you can’t use a FF in the rain. That’s just not so. I’ve done it. The fan can adequately move air when the vent cover is only a couple of inches away from closed. The rain cannot get in with it in that position, even if the fan’s turned off. That is, unless the wind is so strong the rain is blowing horizontally, in which case you may have other, more important issues to deal with — like survival. GB in NC

Response:

Most people put covers on their vents that keep rain out when the vent is open. This also protects the vent from wind and tree limb damage. — Jim Walker Northern Virginia I don’t know why people keep saying you can’t use a FF in the rain. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s just not so. I’ve done it. The fan can adequately move air when the vent cover is only a couple of inches away from closed. The rain cannot get in with it in that position, even if the fan’s turned off. That is, unless the wind is so strong the rain is blowing horizontally, in which case you may have other, more important issues to deal with — like survival. GB in NC

Response:

I don’t know why people keep saying you can’t use a FF in the rain. That’s just not so. I’ve done it.

I don’t know why people keep saying Fantastic Fan when it’s a Fantastic Vent….or FV for those in the know.

Response:

I don’t know why people keep saying Fantastic Fan when it’s a Fantastic Vent….or FV for those in the know.

Well, actually, according to their web site, it’s "Fan-Tastic Vent." Gotcha……. Mr. "No such thing as flat co-ax"

No problem. I’ve been "got" before… GB in NC

Response:

Jim, I’m puzzled. "Most people"? If this is a response to my post, I don’t understand the comment. What covers are you referring to, and on what kind of vent? The Fan-Tastic Vent (okay, Hunter?

Response:

I selected the Maxxair for my rig for two main reasons. One, it moves a LOT more air than a Fantastic Fan. Second, I can use it in the rain. This last Has anyone actually used BOTH in ONE camper and been able to tell which "moved the most air"? The Fantastic Fans I’ve had can suck off a toupee. I’m wondering if I’ll need to drag the dog off the screen if I put in a Maxxair.

There was one poster on a previous tread some months back that had both, and his comment was that Maxxair is considerably more noisy. Wade

Response:

Most people put covers on their vents that keep rain out when the vent is open. This also protects the vent from wind and tree limb damage.

Mine are covered so I can leave them open when driving without having to deal with replacing the cover every few years due to wind damage. Loosing the opportunity to use the vents on the road due to wind problems seems like the biggest reason AGAINST the automatic opening devices.

Response:

Two points: 1. Fan-Tastic Vent folks say you can leave their vents open while driving. (They recommend opening them all the way.) A couple of years ago, the first time I ever called them, I asked the tech about that. I also asked him what would happen if somebody forgot it was open and drove under a tree limb or something that damaged it. He said with a smile in his voice, "It happens all the time. I just send ‘em a new cover with our compliments and suggest they be more careful in the future." (Their web site says the vent cover has a lifetime warranty.) 2. It’s not necessarily an "automatic opening device" unless you purposely wired it that way (some folks do, but I don’t want the cover to open and close each time the thermostat turns off the fan). What it is, is an automatic *closing* device for when it rains. Only after the rain sensor dries out again does it reopen automatically. I freely admit that I have never once had the urge to leave it open while driving. I have plenty of either fresh air or dash a/c (and/or generator and roof air) in my Class B to stay comfortable. I don’t like wind noise (from any window or vent) while driving, unless I’m on a back country road just looking around. In almost four years, I haven’t found a single reason not to be completely satisfied with my FF/FV

Response:

I freely admit that I have never once had the urge to leave it open while

driving. Once mine closed in the night because it started to rain…. The next morning I broke camp and got on the road….. at some point I decided to stop and go into the trailer and the vent was open and running….. I had been on the freeway. No harm done. I closed it…. Hunter

Response:

From their site: CAN I DRIVE WITH MY VENT OPEN?. YES! It is best to have the dome completely open. There is a lifetime warranty on the dome GB, Their answer sure settles the matter. If you break the dome on a low over pass, its covered under the warranty! Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What covers are you referring to, and on what kind of vent? The Fan-Tastic Vent (okay, Hunter?

Response:

I freely admit that I have never once had the urge to leave it open while driving. Once mine closed in the night because it started to rain…. The next morning I broke camp and got on the road….. at some point I decided to stop and go into the trailer and the vent was open and running….. I had been on the freeway. No harm done. I closed it….

No harm, huh? You wish. You’ve never heard of "hyperventilating"?

Response:

I know that people rave about Fantastic Fan giving away parts for free but the counter point is, if it doesn’t break, you don’t need parts. For the record, Maxxair does the same thing but in the several years I’ve had mine, nothing has broken.

I’m leaning towards the Maxxair simply because of ease of installation as it seems everything else is about the same compared to the other. As you said, customer service may or may not be as good as the Fan-tastic vent, but I haven’t heard any complaints about the Maxxair’s reliability or customer service and I don’t expect it to fail anytime soon (it’s just a fan for crying out loud). I was hoping I’d get some more people responding that owned one. Seems lots more people own the Fan-tastic Vent then do the Maxxair, though. Thanks, Ben

Response:

Just have to point out that if Fantastic Fan or any other company is going to stay in business then any ‘free’ parts or service are actually already paid for – by you, in the purchase price. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m considering a better fan for the rig. Maxx Air’s Turbo/Maxx Deluxe 1200T 12V Ceiling Fan with Thermostat looks easier to install then the Fan-Tastic Ceiling Fan Vent which would require removal of the existing vent. Any comments would be appreciated. I don’t know much about either model, but all i keep hearing on here is about the way above excelent service from fantastic fan’s manufacturers, has made me decide with out a doubt, that i’ll be getting a fantastic fan for my motorhome when i can afford one (they’re well over

Solar panel for use in the dark!

admin — Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

What is a copper microbore pipe? I assume it’s a small diameter pipe.

Correct. It is thick walled soft copper that comes in coils. It can be bent by your fingers, although using a bender is the best and neatest way. I don’t know about your climate, but if it gets below freezing, won’t it expand and crack?

Yes. However, you have a self draining solar system or one with ant-freeze in it. Let’s see if I understand your proposal. You are installing a ‘solar panel’ in your attic/loft, small pipes on the roof, and circulating water between them in the daytime.

No. What he meant was that the whole dark tiled roof is the solar collector. Microbore pipes are fixed under the tiles inside the attic/loft with insulation over the pipes. This gives a very large area of tiled solar collector. It is cheap to do and all can be done inside the attic/loft. The collected heat would be stored in a dedicated pre-heat cylinder or in a thermal store cylinder.

Response:

An attic is a habitable room a loft is not. As I understand it, I may be wrong.

In Canada at least, but I suspect in much of the United States as well, an "attic" is generally not habitable, although if it was tall enough it might be made so, while a "loft" generally is part of the habitable space. For the purposes of this thread it appears that your loft and our attic are the same thing – non-habitable space. Kevin MacTavish

Response:

Hi peoples.

Greetings person! … a solar panel …nothing gets installed on the rooftop, this one is installed in the loft, …one could snake a copper microbore pipe up and down the slate roof to collect some of the heat,

What is a copper microbore pipe? I assume it’s a small diameter pipe. I don’t know about your climate, but if it gets below freezing, won’t it expand and crack? (I have used 1/4" copper tubing in the desert for swamp coolers in the summer, but in the winter, there are short periods where it gets below freezing, and after 2 years of repairing leaky sections, I switched to those black poly tubing. Let’s see if I understand your proposal. You are installing a ‘solar panel’ in your attic/loft, small pipes on the roof, and circulating water between them in the daytime. Your solar collectors’ purpose, then, would not be to ‘collect heat’, rather, it would ‘store heat’ collected from your microbore pipe. Do I understand you? If so, then there are alot less costly heat storage containers. For instance, a hot water heater, an acquarium, a bathtub, 1000 foot of 1" diameter poly irrigation tubing. A heat storage device should be insulated. Most of my suggestions are much easier to insulate, due to their size; compared to a long, wide, narrow solar panel. I assume you’re pumping water through these microbore pipes, so won’t static pressure be fairly large due to a long small diameter pipe? …and won’t you need a fairly big pump (using lots of watts) to do such a thing? where there is no sunlight

yup… and now you lose heat out of it due to an affect called black-body radiation Toby

Response:

There’s the misunderstanding – in Canada, churches and mansions might have slate – very few others.

In England they also have concrete tiles that are the colour and look of slate. My house has these and the south facing side gets quite hot even in November. Slate is now expensive, and cheaper Spanish slate is now used a lot, which is actualy not the best, the best being Welsh slate, which is now rare. Many older slate tiled rooves in North America are Welsh slate. Recycling slate and bricks is big business in England. Old houses to demolish have a fare part of them recycled, even the old oak floorboards and beams. A friend of mine built a house using used bricks and roof tiles. The tiles came from Wolverhampton and the bricks from Manchester, from houses that were built in the 1860-70s. We demolish houses of such age here, in the USA they would put a preservation order on them. In fact the houses were not really demolished, just re-incarnated in a different form. We tend to have shallow roofs with asphalt shingles that you can run around on. Inside the loft (or attic, as we call it)

An attic is a habitable room a loft is not. As I understand it, I may be wrong.

Response:

I had an odd thought today, for a solar panel that might be practical. I am thinking it would be eaiser and cheaper to install – I guess the hope behind it would be to make solar more popular. It’s a nice idea – but how many people have slate roofs? (rooves?) Where I live almost everyone has. Same is true for a lot of British towns in fact.

There’s the misunderstanding – in Canada, churches and mansions might have slate – very few others. We tend to have shallow roofs with asphalt shingles that you can run around on. Inside the loft (or attic, as we call it) there’s insulation that makes you itch just thinking about it. It would work in many houses here because it’s also often about the same temperature in there as the Sahara at noon – in the summer, anyway. So to get serious about your idea – the microbore has a lot of resistance – you might be better to use a larger pipe and circulate the water slowly – small pump, not working hard. Also, if you are serious about it, how about going up there a few times, and taking inside and outside temperatures at different times of day. Maybe get an aquarium pump and some plastic or flexible copper tubing and just running 10 or 15 feet of it up the rafters and back. See how much a five gallon container of water heats up in an hour for example. Another option you might consider if, the first experiment seems productive is to run a cold water line up to the peak of the loft, and across the peak where it’s hottest, (inside) you put a few of the cooling coils out of discarded grocery store meat coolers. These can often be had for nothing or just scrap value. The one I used was 8 feet long with 4" sauare aluminum fins. The copper tubing ran back and forth about 10 times – so 80 feet of 1/2 inch copper tubing with fins to carry the heat into it. The output goes back down to the supply side of the hot water tank. Even if it only ran for 8 or 9 months a year and was bypassed and and drained in the coldest months, it should be worthwhile. Fairly easy to setup, very low cost, no pumps required, and only takes an hour or so 2ce a year to switch it on and off. Install the unit at a bit of an angle so that it drains completely, and with a couple of valves and taps it’s a very simple, low maintenance design. What do you think? (I did something like this at the top of my 2 story greenhouse on the south side of my house.) Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While we wait for Nick to tell us exactly how efficient, I think maybe a more productive direction would be along the lines Nick has been talking about lately – trickling water down the roof – either open or covered with plexi, lexan, or whatever. I can see a few diehards going to the trouble of a Thomason, but most would be refused planning permission for that anyway. Then there’s the fact that you couldn’t connect that up to the hot water tank – the resulting infection problems would soon kill someone, and almost certainly be illegal here. And then the fact that most people would be far too concerned about the water damaging their roofs to do it. Bear in mind that slate roofs do leak, they’re not really watertight, so continuous water trickling would soon rot part of the timber structure. And soak patches of ceiling. I am looking for something that is simple enough, cheap enough, uncontroversial enough, and popularisable enough, for it to become the domain of the masses. Consider this: 1000 people installing highly efficient solar systems that save 100% of water heating bills would give you 100×1000 nominal vague units of energy saved = 1,000,000 Now 10,000,000 imstallations saving 30% of hot water bills would save 300,000,000 nominal vague units of energy. 300x as much!! Now do you see where I’m coming from here? It seems there is potential here for both heating the water AND cooling the house. Probably much cheaper than all those microbore pipes, and a lot easier to install. Thats one bit I don’t understand. How could it be simpler? With my inefficient collector one can stand in the loft and staple some tags holding the pipe up, then staple polythene / card sheet etc onto the rafters. Vastly easier than getting scaffolding to get on the roof, putting in roof penetrating connections and mounts etc. Most people I know wouldn’t even consider climbing onto their steeply pitched slate roof. Stand on a slate roof and one false move and you go straight through it anyway, and people know that, or rightly suspect it. The rest of the installation would be the same for either type – conncting to cylinder, pump, controller etc. (Except on a slate roof perhaps!) Also, the basic trickle down the roof would work at very low cost, and a person could add plastic glazing to it as time and money became available – increasing the efficiency slowly. Well, not here anyway. They’d soon be court ordered to pull it off. We have masses of pretty and ancient housing stock, and a lot of areas are subject to very tight planning regs designed to keep things looking old fashioned and pretty. Plastic roofing sheets would not be accepted unless they were well out of view. And most householders here would sneer at plastic roofing even if they could install it – rightly or wrongly. No offense meant – just couldn’t help kidding you about slate roofs. I’d love to have one, myself. Yeah, they’re nice and pretty. Of course they are also over 100 years old… so need a few slates replacing every year or two. Well, you might think this is not a good idea, but I think it may well be. I’d like to hear more input tho. It is after all an unglazed collector with a little insulation between collector surface and pipe… so certainly not efficient. But the available roof area to use would be huge compared to most practical solar collectors. I don’t give up easy Regards, NT I wrote… It would be inefficient, but would also be huge. The basic idea is this… nothing gets installed on the rooftop, this one is installed in the loft, where there is no sunlight Its OK, I havent lost it yet… see a black slate roof gets hot in sunlight, so one could snake a copper microbore pipe up and down the slate roof to collect some of the heat, pinning it in place here and there, and putting some form of very basic insulation behind it. Now efficiency would be poor, but the loft roof area would be huge. Big Qs: How efficient might this be? How could one control it… it would have to be actively emptied when it got too cold, but I didn’t figure out in one sitting a simple way to both pump the water round and empty it. I really want to keep it cheap and simple. We can all put something complex together, but I’m hoping for something simple and cheap enough to make it into mass market application. Any input would be good… Regards, NT

Response:

Where I live almost everyone has. Same is true for a lot of British towns in fact. While we wait for Nick to tell us exactly how efficient, I think maybe a more productive direction would be along the lines Nick has been talking about lately – trickling water down the roof – either open or covered with plexi, lexan, or whatever.

I can see a few diehards going to the trouble of a Thomason, but most would be refused planning permission for that anyway. Then there’s the fact that you couldn’t connect that up to the hot water tank – the resulting infection problems would soon kill someone, and almost certainly be illegal here. And then the fact that most people would be far too concerned about the water damaging their roofs to do it. Bear in mind that slate roofs do leak, they’re not really watertight, so continuous water trickling would soon rot part of the timber structure. And soak patches of ceiling. I am looking for something that is simple enough, cheap enough, uncontroversial enough, and popularisable enough, for it to become the domain of the masses. Consider this: 1000 people installing highly efficient solar systems that save 100% of water heating bills would give you 100×1000 nominal vague units of energy saved = 1,000,000 Now 10,000,000 imstallations saving 30% of hot water bills would save 300,000,000 nominal vague units of energy. 300x as much!! Now do you see where I’m coming from here? It seems there is potential here for both heating the water AND cooling the house. Probably much cheaper than all those microbore pipes, and a lot easier to install.

Thats one bit I don’t understand. How could it be simpler? With my inefficient collector one can stand in the loft and staple some tags holding the pipe up, then staple polythene / card sheet etc onto the rafters. Vastly easier than getting scaffolding to get on the roof, putting in roof penetrating connections and mounts etc. Most people I know wouldn’t even consider climbing onto their steeply pitched slate roof. Stand on a slate roof and one false move and you go straight through it anyway, and people know that, or rightly suspect it. The rest of the installation would be the same for either type – conncting to cylinder, pump, controller etc. (Except on a slate roof perhaps!) Also, the basic trickle down the roof would work at very low cost, and a person could add plastic glazing to it as time and money became available – increasing the efficiency slowly.

Well, not here anyway. They’d soon be court ordered to pull it off. We have masses of pretty and ancient housing stock, and a lot of areas are subject to very tight planning regs designed to keep things looking old fashioned and pretty. Plastic roofing sheets would not be accepted unless they were well out of view. And most householders here would sneer at plastic roofing even if they could install it – rightly or wrongly. No offense meant – just couldn’t help kidding you about slate roofs. I’d love to have one, myself.

Yeah, they’re nice and pretty. Of course they are also over 100 years old… so need a few slates replacing every year or two. Well, you might think this is not a good idea, but I think it may well be. I’d like to hear more input tho. It is after all an unglazed collector with a little insulation between collector surface and pipe… so certainly not efficient. But the available roof area to use would be huge compared to most practical solar collectors. I don’t give up easy Regards, NT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I wrote… It would be inefficient, but would also be huge. The basic idea is this… nothing gets installed on the rooftop, this one is installed in the loft, where there is no sunlight Its OK, I havent lost it yet… see a black slate roof gets hot in sunlight, so one could snake a copper microbore pipe up and down the slate roof to collect some of the heat, pinning it in place here and there, and putting some form of very basic insulation behind it. Now efficiency would be poor, but the loft roof area would be huge. Big Qs: How efficient might this be? How could one control it… it would have to be actively emptied when it got too cold, but I didn’t figure out in one sitting a simple way to both pump the water round and empty it. I really want to keep it cheap and simple. We can all put something complex together, but I’m hoping for something simple and cheap enough to make it into mass market application. Any input would be good… Regards, NT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:08 PM Hi peoples. I had an odd thought today, for a solar panel that might be practical. I am thinking it would be eaiser and cheaper to install – I guess the hope behind it would be to make solar more popular. It’s a nice idea – but how many people have slate roofs? (rooves?) While we wait for Nick to tell us exactly how efficient, I think maybe a more productive direction would be along the lines Nick has been talking about lately – trickling water down the roof – either open or covered with plexi, lexan, or whatever. It seems there is potential here for both heating the water AND cooling the house. Probably much cheaper than all those microbore pipes, and a lot easier to install. (Except on a slate roof perhaps!) Also, the basic trickle down the roof would work at very low cost, and a person could add plastic glazing to it as time and money became available – increasing the efficiency slowly. The nice thing about the glazing – the snow doesn’t stick for nearly as much as it does on the asphalt shingles – especially on a shallow roof. Of course, slate roofs (rooves) tend to be much steeper and it’s very difficult to nail into it. A shame to glaze over a nice slate roof anyway. No offense meant – just couldn’t help kidding you about slate roofs. I’d love to have one, myself. Bob It would be inefficient, but would also be huge. The basic idea is this… nothing gets installed on the rooftop, this one is installed in the loft, where there is no sunlight Its OK, I havent lost it yet… see a black slate roof gets hot in sunlight, so one could snake a copper microbore pipe up and down the slate roof to collect some of the heat, pinning it in place here and there, and putting some form of very basic insulation behind it. Now efficiency would be poor, but the loft roof area would be huge. Big Qs: How efficient might this be? How could one control it… it would have to be actively emptied when it got too cold, but I didn’t figure out in one sitting a simple way to both pump the water round and empty it. I really want to keep it cheap and simple. We can all put something complex together, but I’m hoping for something simple and cheap enough to make it into mass market application. Any input would be good… Regards, NT

Response:

Hi peoples. I had an odd thought today, for a solar panel that might be practical. I am thinking it would be eaiser and cheaper to install – I guess the hope behind it would be to make solar more popular. It would be inefficient, but would also be huge. The basic idea is this… nothing gets installed on the rooftop, this one is installed in the loft, where there is no sunlight Its OK, I havent lost it yet… see a black slate roof gets hot in sunlight, so one could snake a copper microbore pipe up and down the slate roof to collect some of the heat, pinning it in place here and there, and putting some form of very basic insulation behind it. Now efficiency would be poor, but the loft roof area would be huge. Big Qs: How efficient might this be? How could one control it… it would have to be actively emptied when it got too cold, but I didn’t figure out in one sitting a simple way to both pump the water round and empty it. I really want to keep it cheap and simple. We can all put something complex together, but I’m hoping for something simple and cheap enough to make it into mass market application. Any input would be good… Regards, NT

Response:

Gas Lamps

admin — Mon, 29 Jul 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I was looking into purchasing a gas lamp for my home. After falling out of my seat over the price (~$300+ for even the most basic of models) I was disappointed to find out that these lamps run 24/7. There is no OFF/ON switch. I thought that perhaps there would at least be some way to "light" the lamp or even an electronic ignition similar to what’s on my heater.

Response:

I have no idea what you were looking at but propane camping lamps are typically less than $50 and some of them come with electronic ignition. REII http://www.rei.com/ sells one model for $16 and the Coleman twin mantle version for $30. Even if you went with the expensive and fancy gas lamps made for indoor use in homes they can still cost less than $90/each. http://insiderweb.com/lamp_gas_inside_prices.htm You could also use one of those Aladdin style oil lamps. These can be had for as little as $50 if you shop around. All of these can be turned off. There may not be a switch but there is always a gas valve, wick or the ability to blow them out. Last time I looked I couldn’t find an on/off switch or electronic ignition on any candle, camp fire or sandwich. That said, I don’t know what you need a gas lamp for. Technology has advanced in the last couple of hundred years and there is a very good reason why people prefer electric lights. Even for remote cabins a battery operated light, perhaps charged from a solar panel, is often preferred to a gas lamp. Anthony

Response:

Well there are advantages to gas lamps. When youve got mains electricity you use electric lights: no cleaning, much less heat, and you dont have to actually go up to the light to press the lighter. But when youre running on high priced solar leccy, I would say gas lighting becomes a genuine option. It is very cheap compared to solar. The one significant problem is the heat they give off. In a hot climate they can be attached outside a small prupose window with a reflector, so you get the light but not the heat. The other issue is reliability. I used to use electric backup lighting, and had several failures. When I went over to gas, I’ve had no failures in 10 yrs, and relatively tiny running costs. If you want the ‘light switch’ function, you could use the switch to control a gas solenoid to switch on and off, and to drive a small sparking circuit to light it. Not exactly off the shelf, but you cna do it. Regards, NT

Response:

Be ye Irish me lad? That had to be the most appropos mis-spelling I’ve read lately Needed that laugh! ben

Response:

I don’t understand why they haven’t already come out with some type of OFF/ON function with particularly the outdoor lamps… Those are surely not needed during the day-time and that means you’re burning twice as much gas as you really need. Do you think they’ve not done this because gas is so "cheap"? Seems like an awful waist to run the thing 24/7. Your idea sounds like a good one. I’m a EE, but still would have reservations about putting anything "home made" into a natural gas line. Jason

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking into purchasing a gas lamp for my home. After falling out of my seat over the price (~$300+ for even the most basic of models) I was disappointed to find out that these lamps run 24/7. There is no OFF/ON switch. I thought that perhaps there would at least be some way to "light" the lamp or even an electronic ignition similar to what’s on my heater. I have no idea what you were looking at but propane camping lamps are typically less than $50 and some of them come with electronic ignition. That said, I don’t know what you need a gas lamp for. Technology has advanced in the last couple of hundred years and there is a very good reason why people prefer electric lights. Even for remote cabins a battery operated light, perhaps charged from a solar panel, is often preferred to a gas lamp. Well there are advantages to gas lamps. When youve got mains electricity you use electric lights: no cleaning, much less heat, and you dont have to actually go up to the light to press the lighter. But when youre running on high priced solar leccy, I would say gas lighting becomes a genuine option. It is very cheap compared to solar. The one significant problem is the heat they give off. In a hot climate they can be attached outside a small prupose window with a reflector, so you get the light but not the heat. The other issue is reliability. I used to use electric backup lighting, and had several failures. When I went over to gas, I’ve had no failures in 10 yrs, and relatively tiny running costs. If you want the ‘light switch’ function, you could use the switch to control a gas solenoid to switch on and off, and to drive a small sparking circuit to light it. Not exactly off the shelf, but you cna do it. Regards, NT I don’t understand why they haven’t already come out with some type of OFF/ON function with particularly the outdoor lamps… Those are surely not needed during the day-time and that means you’re burning twice as much gas as you really need. Do you think they’ve not done this because gas is so "cheap"? Seems like an awful waist to run the thing 24/7.

I’ve never seen anything like that: maybe its cos youre in America Your idea sounds like a good one. I’m a EE, but still would have reservations about putting anything "home made" into a natural gas line.

Well you wouldn’t need to. There are water controlling solenoids that have the coil outside the piping, and use nylon parts in contact with the water. They are designed to work at water mains pressure without leaking. I would expect they’d work fine with gas… I’d want to test the installation properly for any leakage of course. You’d need the solenoid to be clsoe to the light, not one solenoid for several lights. You cant let air gt into the gas pipe when the light is off!! As for the sparking lighter, that would be inside the globe, not inside the gas piping. A small motor and a flint would be a simple way: a cap or relay gives the motor a pulse only. Better in fact would be a catalytic lighter. There are portable gas soldering irons that use a catalyst to ignite the gas. If that will produce a flame – I’m not sure – it would be simple, and safer too. If there were any gas leak the gas would be burnt off rather than accumulating in the room. I guess its not done cos theres so little market for gas lights. Regards, NT

Response:

If you want the ‘light switch’ function, you could use the switch to control a gas solenoid to switch on and off, and to drive a small sparking circuit to light it. Not exactly off the shelf, but you cna do it. ^^^ Regards, NT Be ye Irish me lad? That had to be the most appropos mis-spelling I’ve read lately Needed that laugh! ben

Hehe. You’re not the first one who’s said that Regards, NT

Response:

Your idea sounds like a good one. I’m a EE, but still would have reservations about putting anything "home made" into a natural gas line. Well you wouldn’t need to. There are water controlling solenoids that have the coil outside the piping, and use nylon parts in contact with the water. They are designed to work at water mains pressure without leaking. I would expect they’d work fine with gas… I’d want to test the installation properly for any leakage of course. You’d need the solenoid to be clsoe to the light, not one solenoid for several lights. You cant let air gt into the gas pipe when the light is

off!! *Don’t use a water solenoid for Gas!* Natural gas can react with some metals, making them brittle, and may also react with some plastics causing brittleness or softening. The resulting failure would be catastrophic. There are solenoids designed for natural gas, used in modern gas furnaces, ovens, and dryers. Some of these solenoid sets include ignitors and a safety shutoff if the flame goes out. As for the sparking lighter, that would be inside the globe, not inside the gas piping. A small motor and a flint would be a simple way: a cap or relay gives the motor a pulse only. Better in fact would be a catalytic lighter. There are portable gas soldering irons that use a catalyst to ignite the gas. If that will produce a flame – I’m not sure – it would be simple, and safer too. If there were any gas leak the gas would be burnt off rather than accumulating in the room. I guess its not done cos theres so little market for gas lights. Regards, NT

High temperature gas catalysts must be hot to work. Low temperature gas catalysts use platinum – an expensive material. For that reason, most gas ignitors use either a spark or a hot wire for ignition – much less expensive. CM

Response:

kids have these little hand squeezed doodads that spark as a wheel spins inside. put a motor on it, and wala, (or boom). we used to have propane lighting when we were offgrid. it had a gas valve on the lamp. never though about automating it with a gas solenoid and a sparker. too easy just to walk over with a match. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking into purchasing a gas lamp for my home. After falling out of my seat over the price (~$300+ for even the most basic of models) I was disappointed to find out that these lamps run 24/7. There is no OFF/ON switch. I thought that perhaps there would at least be some way to "light" the lamp or even an electronic ignition similar to what’s on my heater. I have no idea what you were looking at but propane camping lamps are typically less than $50 and some of them come with electronic ignition. That said, I don’t know what you need a gas lamp for. Technology has advanced in the last couple of hundred years and there is a very good reason why people prefer electric lights. Even for remote cabins a battery operated light, perhaps charged from a solar panel, is often preferred to a gas lamp. Well there are advantages to gas lamps. When youve got mains electricity you use electric lights: no cleaning, much less heat, and you dont have to actually go up to the light to press the lighter. But when youre running on high priced solar leccy, I would say gas lighting becomes a genuine option. It is very cheap compared to solar. The one significant problem is the heat they give off. In a hot climate they can be attached outside a small prupose window with a reflector, so you get the light but not the heat. The other issue is reliability. I used to use electric backup lighting, and had several failures. When I went over to gas, I’ve had no failures in 10 yrs, and relatively tiny running costs. If you want the ‘light switch’ function, you could use the switch to control a gas solenoid to switch on and off, and to drive a small sparking circuit to light it. Not exactly off the shelf, but you cna do it. Regards, NT I don’t understand why they haven’t already come out with some type of OFF/ON function with particularly the outdoor lamps… Those are surely not needed during the day-time and that means you’re burning twice as much gas as you really need. Do you think they’ve not done this because gas is so "cheap"? Seems like an awful waist to run the thing 24/7. I’ve never seen anything like that: maybe its cos youre in America Your idea sounds like a good one. I’m a EE, but still would have reservations about putting anything "home made" into a natural gas line. Well you wouldn’t need to. There are water controlling solenoids that have the coil outside the piping, and use nylon parts in contact with the water. They are designed to work at water mains pressure without leaking. I would expect they’d work fine with gas… I’d want to test the installation properly for any leakage of course. You’d need the solenoid to be clsoe to the light, not one solenoid for several lights. You cant let air gt into the gas pipe when the light is off!! As for the sparking lighter, that would be inside the globe, not inside the gas piping. A small motor and a flint would be a simple way: a cap or relay gives the motor a pulse only. Better in fact would be a catalytic lighter. There are portable gas soldering irons that use a catalyst to ignite the gas. If that will produce a flame – I’m not sure – it would be simple, and safer too. If there were any gas leak the gas would be burnt off rather than accumulating in the room. I guess its not done cos theres so little market for gas lights. Regards, NT

Response:

Jason, I have ten of these gas lamps in my house.They have on/off levers. http://www.newenglandsolar.com/catalog_pages/catalog72.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking into purchasing a gas lamp for my home. After falling out of my seat over the price (~$300+ for even the most basic of models) I was disappointed to find out that these lamps run 24/7. There is no OFF/ON switch. I thought that perhaps there would at least be some way to "light" the lamp or even an electronic ignition similar to what’s on my heater.

Response:

Powering America: A Time for Alternatives

admin — Fri, 25 May 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Different issues. Last year I don’t recall any shortages on the scale of this year. . . . . As to the question of additional refining capacity…lot’s of mergers, some plants have been modernized and are actually producing more product than ever. However why build a new refinery until the government gives you an incentive. Shortages raise prices. Good for business.

I can get 3+% in Gov’t bond, a refinery gets about 2-2.5% return on investment. Where would an intelligent person put their money? Why hasn’t there been more refining capacity added in the last few years? There is currently no shortage of oil, only a shortage of refining capacity.

FBN Graphics prints specialties in small quantities at reasonable prices. Express your interests with a Custom printed T-shirt, mug, mousepad, or carry bag. We cheerfully print in quantities as small as one. http://www.digiserve.com/fbngraphics/ Answer the design survey, and win a free prize.

Response:

Oil. I can get 3+% in Gov’t bond, a refinery gets about 2-2.5% return on investment. Where would an intelligent person put their money?

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Response:

They did and do. A big reactor in AZ (Palo Verde) was refueled in April or so, and now in May, Diablo Canyon Unit 2 (1102 MW) is down for refueling. Unfortunately San Onofre Unit 3 (1108.7 MW) had a fire in February and is still off line. See the "Non-Operational Generating Units" link on the CalISO page at

Response:

You don’t refuel all the cars at the same time. Shoddy regulatory practice to shut all nukes at the same time, especially considering the present need. Staggering is the word I think of — staggeringly stupid to do so, but also staggering the refueling might have been a good thing. Just like cars NUKEs need refueling. The best time is either the spring or fall. Should we just run them until August and then have them shutdown automactically when their fuel is gone?????

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Response:

You don’t refuel all the cars at the same time. Shoddy regulatory practice to shut all nukes at the same time, especially considering the present need.

Most all race cars pit for fuel near the same lap count.

Response:

OK, then how about the electric shortage? Why hasn’t there been more refining capacity added in the last few years? The electric shortage is mainly caused by plants being shut down so that very high prices can be charged for the remaining power.

This reminds me of the game union workers play… One union slug calls in sick at the last moment causing the company to jump through their ass to get a replacement worker for that shift and paying a premium for it.. and maybe even screwup with the turn list and cause a grievence on top of the situation. Most of the plants run on – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NG, not oil or refined oil. The refiners are playing the same game. If less oil is refined, they get more for what they do refine.

Response:

Yes certainly a time for alternatives! Why is it that with 4% of world population, the USA produces 25% of greenhouse gas emissions?

Maybe we (US) are playing too much policeman for the world and causing too much greenhouse emissions. . Instead of defending other nations and playing peacemaker, the US should divert that money to making the US more energy efficient. Let one nation kick the shit out of another without US intervention. Cool.

Response:

Most is not all. Races cars are not road cars. You don’t refuel all the cars at the same time. Shoddy regulatory practice to shut all nukes at the same time, especially considering the present need. Most all race cars pit for fuel near the same lap count.

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Response:

Yes certainly a time for alternatives! Why is it that with 4% of world population, the USA produces 25% of greenhouse gas emissions? Primarily, the cause is profligate, inefficient use of the energy already available, and under utilisation of available cost effective renewable resources. Do you know that compact flourescent light bulbs use only 25% of the electricity of conventional incandescent bulbs, last considerably longer, and in any light left on for several hours a day will save money in under a year! Make sure your hot water tank and piping are well insulated, that will pay for itself in weeks! Switch off "phantum loads" these are TV’s, video recorders etc. left on standby when not in use. Each one draws about 10 watts. This can easily add up to 100 watts doing nothing useful in an average house. In Greece, with a simelar climate to southern california, nearly everyone uses solar panels to heat their water. Particularly for people in the southern states, consider installing a solar panel. If everyone did this, there would definately be no shortage of electricity. Install reflective window blinds, particularly on windows subject to direct sunlight, this will significantly reduce load on air conditioning units, saving considerable amounts of electricity, as well as making your air conditioner last longer. Improvements to building insulation will have the same effect. When buying new apliances, ensure that you are buying the best built, most energy efficient products you can afford. They will save you money in the long run, as well as being better for the environment. Finally, encourage the installation of significantly more wind turbines (avoiding areas of outstanding beauty, or ecological fragility). In Europe, many wind farms are being planned for offshore locations. United Kingdom – Licences issued for 1.5GW. Germany – Private consortia are seeking permission for 4GW. Republic of Ireland – Dublin Bay project planned to produce enough electricity to power all Dublin’s 200,000 homes. Holland, Denmark, Sweden – All have existing offshore wind farms, and plans for substantial expansion. On good sites, wind can compete on a level playing field with the cost of any other form of generation. What is more, in Denmark, the wind industry is both a major employer, and a major exporter. The same could be true anywhere else that enthusiastically embraced wind generated electricity. If all these suggestions were adopted, along with other energy efficiency strategies, then the USA could close down a large proportion of its older more polluting generators, and meet international expectations regarding mitigation of climate change. This could be done while growing the economy, and without bringing about a recession. I believe in fact that living standards would in fact rise significantly as the country prospered due to greater productivity per Kw hour.

Response:

OK, then how about the electric shortage?

Of the proposed power plants that have been delayed or blocked, 12 were opposed by the utility companies. One was opposed by Cisco. Environmental groups have advocated for some of the plants that were blocked by industry, either because they would like old and polluting plants replaced with efficient, clean plant, or (in the case of Calpine) because the proposed location minimizes environmental damage by locating the plant near an existing transmission corridor. … but in any case, as anyone knows who has assessed their energy usage, most of the energy we "use" is actually wasted. It doesn’t make sense to build dozens of new plants without first aggressively conserving energy. Otherwise, 50-80% of the energy from new plants will merely be thrown away, right off the top.

Response:

Just like cars NUKEs need refueling. The best time is either the spring or fall. Should we just run them until August and then have them shutdown automactically when their fuel is gone????? So how in the space of 1 year did everything get so crazy? Certainly a large part is the ability of the generators to "legally" game the system. And another would be the lack of hydro due to drought conditions.

The system has been degrading for several years. The system used to have a 15-20% reserve overhead. That is: demand is 15-20% below supply. But as no plants were built, demand grew. Even though CA residents use the least energy per capita than anywhere else in the nation, the sheer number of people and industry drove up demand. BTW: Residental electric usage is only 20% of demand. Industry takes at least 50%. As demand keep rising, the reserve kept shrinking. Warnings were given time and again over the past several years. But most people don’t like bad news. It took a 2×4 between the eyes (blackouts) to jolt people. Yes there may be gaming, but I believe it to be a small percentage of the total. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lack of grid interties also contributes, but the real answer is…no shortage of electricity, just a shortage of cheap dependable electricity. And that’s the way it’s going to be from now on. As to the question of additional refining capacity…lot’s of mergers, some plants have been modernized and are actually producing more product than ever. However why build a new refinery until the government gives you an incentive. Shortages raise prices. Good for business. OK, then how about the electric shortage? Why hasn’t there been more refining capacity added in the last few years? There is currently no shortage of oil, only a shortage of refining capacity.

Response:

OK, then how about the electric shortage? Why hasn’t there been more refining capacity added in the last few years?

The electric shortage is mainly caused by plants being shut down so that very high prices can be charged for the remaining power. Most of the plants run on NG, not oil or refined oil. The refiners are playing the same game. If less oil is refined, they get more for what they do refine.

Response:

Different issues. Last year I don’t recall any shortages on the scale of this year. In fact in California this winter, there was a lot of capacity off-line for repair/maintenance, and at this very moment all of the Nukes are off-line for re-fueling (a wonderful coincindence that the feds allowed that to happen.) So how in the space of 1 year did everything get so crazy? Certainly a large part is the ability of the generators to "legally" game the system. And another would be the lack of hydro due to drought conditions. Lack of grid interties also contributes, but the real answer is…no shortage of electricity, just a shortage of cheap dependable electricity. And that’s the way it’s going to be from now on. As to the question of additional refining capacity…lot’s of mergers, some plants have been modernized and are actually producing more product than ever. However why build a new refinery until the government gives you an incentive. Shortages raise prices. Good for business. OK, then how about the electric shortage? Why hasn’t there been more refining capacity added in the last few years? There is currently no shortage of oil, only a shortage of refining capacity.

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Response:

There is currently no shortage of oil, only a shortage of refining capacity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Powering America: A Time for Alternatives With the threat of continued power shortages in California, and talk of gasoline prices approaching upwards of three dollars per gallon this summer, America can no longer afford to ignore its need to explore various energy-producing alternatives, including building new nuclear power plants and drilling for oil in Alaska’s wilderness. Any potential for increasing domestic energy production is worth exploring. While such action is bitterly opposed by environmental extremists, our country’s need to reduce our dependence on foreign sources of oil is plainly obvious. It is imperative that we have intelligent and bold leadership on the issue of domestic oil exploration– something that was most definitely lacking during the eight years of the previous administration.

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Response:

OK, then how about the electric shortage? Why hasn’t there been more refining capacity added in the last few years?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is currently no shortage of oil, only a shortage of refining capacity. Powering America: A Time for Alternatives With the threat of continued power shortages in California, and talk of gasoline prices approaching upwards of three dollars per gallon this summer, America can no longer afford to ignore its need to explore various energy-producing alternatives, including building new nuclear power plants and drilling for oil in Alaska’s wilderness. Any potential for increasing domestic energy production is worth exploring. While such action is bitterly opposed by environmental extremists, our country’s need to reduce our dependence on foreign sources of oil is plainly obvious. It is imperative that we have intelligent and bold leadership on the issue of domestic oil exploration– something that was most definitely lacking during the eight years of the previous administration. — Remove "REMOVE" from address (when present) for reply by e-mail