America Falls Behind In Solar Technology

Question:

The only problem with solar cells is that they sell at $10/watt within a module and need to sell at $1.00/watt to be competitive with fossile fuel derived cells.

Ten bucks a Watt? Maybe if you buy them from the Pentagon.  :-)  Here http://www.sunelec.com/Clearance/Solar_Modules/blemishesolar_modules1… $2 a Watt if you’re a savvy shopper. Wayne

Response:

Current cost of outfitting one average  sized house with enough solar panels (in a moderate climate) capable of supporting a modest enery requirement:  $70,000.

Nonsense. Wayne  www.citlink.net/~wmbjk

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it? Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions So, solar panels totalling 316 miles on a side?  Yes, I can see that being very possible in the next, oh, million years.  Right after they build the first mile wide nuclear reactor and land a crew of 100 on Pluto. Why don’t the enviro-wackos admit;  Once oil runs low we will move toward the only product capable of replacing oil at anything near it’s cost; Methanol. There are already mandates for 10% methanol content in gas in Canada within a few years and I suspect the U.S. will follow suit. -Rich

I don’t believe that the US can grow enough Corn to fuel our cars completely with methanol. Methonal is more useful as an oxidizer. It could be useful in fuel cells. "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke   You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it? -Rich Actualy its much smaller.  Each square meter recives about 800 watts of sun and solar cells can easily extracted 14% of this. A 10m x 10m or 100sqm roof collecting area with 20% efficient cells will collect 100kw.hr on a sunny day.   This is enough to meet all the domestic AND commerical/industrial needs of a family of 4.  The output of the cells will fall to 22% on days that are completely overcast with heavy rain cloud but this is more than enough to meet the domesitic needs for heating, cooking and lighting with a small amount left over. I calculate that 64KW.Hr will be needed to make transporatation hydrogen.  (on the basis that the US used 8L gasoline per day per person and that each liter contains 8lw.Hr of energy) I calculate that 37KW.Hr will be needed to provide electricity  (this is the USA’s per capita consumption rate as given by the CIA world fact book) I calcualte that another 20kW wqill be needed per person per day to replace natural gas, althout much of this is used to generate electricity. A total of 120KW.Hr per person per day.  Most nations could do this with half the amount of energy consumption.  Lets assume only 60KW.Hr is required due to efficiency increases. As a square meter of 10% efficient solar cells can generate about 0.6KW.Hr per day.  This means we need 100sqm per person. For the US with 3 x 10^8 people this means 3 x 10^9 sqm.   So I come up with a square 55km/side or 77km/side if 120kW.Hrs is required. It could easily be put together by putting solar cells on roofs alone. The only problem with solar cells is that they sell at $10/watt within a module and need to sell at $1.00/watt to be competitive with fossile fuel derived cells. Some people calim they are already cost effective becuase the manufacturers like Siemens offer 25 year guarnatees and as they are likely to last 100 years with less than a 20% fall of in output they will break even after about 50. Solar thermal hot water systems are already competitive but many people are diappointed becuase so many poorly desigend systems have failed due to water leaks and corrosion.

Current cost of outfitting one average  sized house with enough solar panels (in a moderate climate) capable of supporting a modest enery requirement:  $70,000.  Meanwhile, computer processors are about to crack the 100w dissipation barrier.  Solar panels are NO WHERE good enough in any sense to replace hydro, coal, nuclear, gasoline, diesel or even propane. -Rich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it? Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

So, solar panels totalling 316 miles on a side?  Yes, I can see that being very possible in the next, oh, million years.  Right after they build the first mile wide nuclear reactor and land a crew of 100 on Pluto. Why don’t the enviro-wackos admit;  Once oil runs low we will move toward the only product capable of replacing oil at anything near it’s cost; Methanol. There are already mandates for 10% methanol content in gas in Canada within a few years and I suspect the U.S. will follow suit. -Rich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? Do conservatives like you understand that there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand? What does the term "there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand" mean?  Economist and those who take a course in economics believe that the law of supply and demand is central to the study of economics.

It’s a generalized principle, not a ‘law’. Sometimes market forces move prices to were supply & demand are equal, sometimes they don’t. Karl Johanson

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? Do conservatives like you understand that there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand?

What does the term "there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand" mean?  Economist and those who take a course in economics believe that the law of supply and demand is central to the study of economics.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? Do conservatives like you understand that there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand? That corporations make their living from modifying both of these, and including risk, and expectations for the future? And second, let me suggest that this political position is not conservative, it is without merit, and the position commented on is not particularly liberal, democratic (as in the party), nor is it necessary to identify the group or party most associated with it in order to address the issues of substance associated with it. The issues of substance, are solar cells in Japan cheaper? Is power more expensive? Who is installing the systems and what makes them a better buy there than here? Is this a result of our economy going into the tank? It would be interesting to see what the growth rates are.

The growth rates in the US are certainly higher then Japan and Germany by a factor of 10. In 2002, a recession year for the US, the US growth rate was 2.4% for the same year it was .2% for both Japan and Germany. I suspect that economics will remain a mystery for vast sectors of the population. "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke   You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

If solar pays for THEM, it’s worth further investment HERE.

Subsidies plus PC brainwashing. Also once they’re up it is too late to rethink and actually cost effective to keep them there. This may mislead others.

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand?

Do conservatives like you understand that there is no such thing as a law of supply and demand? That corporations make their living from modifying both of these, and including risk, and expectations for the future? And second, let me suggest that this political position is not conservative, it is without merit, and the position commented on is not particularly liberal, democratic (as in the party), nor is it necessary to identify the group or party most associated with it in order to address the issues of substance associated with it. The issues of substance, are solar cells in Japan cheaper? Is power more expensive? Who is installing the systems and what makes them a better buy there than here? Is this a result of our economy going into the tank? It would be interesting to see what the growth rates are.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.   Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? After trying to tinker with it for nearly a century with wage-and-price controls and rent controls and price supports, will liberals ever understand the basic immutability of that law? The reason why solar power is more attractive in other countries is that their fossil fuel costs are higher. The reason why gas-guzzling SUVs are more attractive in America than in other countries is that our gasoline prices are lower. See how that works now?

   Some of them do … so they’re scheming to artificially    inflate the price of fossil fuels here. That way they    can FORCE their ‘renewable energy’ schemes upon us. If    solar-electric is twice as expensive as natural-gas,    double or triple the price of natural gas. That’s their    ’logic’ … and if it runs the economy into a ditch, all    the better – our just punishment for being successful.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it? Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles. You are assuming that the sun shines 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

False. If I had been doing that I might have said something like 0.10 conversion of 1,000 W/m^2, rather than 0.05 conversion of 250 W/m^2. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it? -Rich

Actualy its much smaller.  Each square meter recives about 800 watts of sun and solar cells can easily extracted 14% of this. A 10m x 10m or 100sqm roof collecting area with 20% efficient cells will collect 100kw.hr on a sunny day.   This is enough to meet all the domestic AND commerical/industrial needs of a family of 4.  The output of the cells will fall to 22% on days that are completely overcast with heavy rain cloud but this is more than enough to meet the domesitic needs for heating, cooking and lighting with a small amount left over. I calculate that 64KW.Hr will be needed to make transporatation hydrogen.  (on the basis that the US used 8L gasoline per day per person and that each liter contains 8lw.Hr of energy) I calculate that 37KW.Hr will be needed to provide electricity  (this is the USA’s per capita consumption rate as given by the CIA world fact book) I calcualte that another 20kW wqill be needed per person per day to replace natural gas, althout much of this is used to generate electricity. A total of 120KW.Hr per person per day.  Most nations could do this with half the amount of energy consumption.  Lets assume only 60KW.Hr is required due to efficiency increases. As a square meter of 10% efficient solar cells can generate about 0.6KW.Hr per day.  This means we need 100sqm per person. For the US with 3 x 10^8 people this means 3 x 10^9 sqm.   So I come up with a square 55km/side or 77km/side if 120kW.Hrs is required. It could easily be put together by putting solar cells on roofs alone. The only problem with solar cells is that they sell at $10/watt within a module and need to sell at $1.00/watt to be competitive with fossile fuel derived cells. Some people calim they are already cost effective becuase the manufacturers like Siemens offer 25 year guarnatees and as they are likely to last 100 years with less than a 20% fall of in output they will break even after about 50. Solar thermal hot water systems are already competitive but many people are diappointed becuase so many poorly desigend systems have failed due to water leaks and corrosion.

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it? Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles.

You are assuming that the sun shines 24 hours a day 365 days a year. It don’t do that even here in sunny So Cal. "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke   You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it? -Rich

Response:

How many solar panels in square MILES are required to satisfy all the power requirements of the U.S.?  Give you a hint;  It’s a number between 300,000 and 500,000.  Horrifying, isn’t it?

Horrifying, but not, I suspect, true. 1.3 TW of petroleum, another few hundred GW of this and that … let’s say 3 TW. Suppose after necessary conversions it takes 20 W of sunlight to contribute 1 W to that three-terawatt load … at 250 W/m^2 it looks to be slightly under 100,000 square miles. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States. Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand?

Sure. Subsidize the price of oil with wars and military spending in the middle east. With the price of oil subsidized(supply) , Americans drive gas hog SUVs (demand). After trying to tinker with it for nearly a century with wage-and-price controls and rent controls and price supports, will liberals ever understand the basic immutability of that law?

It was Nixon who last tried price controls. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason why solar power is more attractive in other countries is that their fossil fuel costs are higher. The reason why gas-guzzling SUVs are more attractive in America than in other countries is that our gasoline prices are lower. subsidized. See how that works now? — Steven L.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.  In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology.  But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. Yet more proof, that anytime you vote for a Republican you are voting to take America backwards.  Think about it.   I bought my house new in 1985. It came with a complex solar assisted water heating system. The roof unit started leaking in 1998. I asked how much it would cost to replace it and the answer was $2,500. I chose not to replace it at that time. To the best of my calculations the unit saved me around $150 per month. If I were to replace it today at that $2,500 amount and assuming that it wouldn’t break down again it would take 139 years for me to break even on the deal.

that is $1.50 obivously. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Fuel prices may be high enough in Germany and Japan to make wide spread solar usage economical but not where I live. Let me know when It becomes cheaper then the current system. Abel Malcolm www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51…             President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy.  Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips.  But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president.  To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg "I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke   You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

"I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke   You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.  In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology.  But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. He thinks it would be nice *if* the oil industry found solar panels offensive, for that would be a sign that they compete with oil. Since the US federal government takes, in effect, more profit by taxing oil and gas than any private outfit that produces them takes in profits as such, another plausible way to look at this is that the "oil president" of the pair was Carter. This would be in keeping with their respective attitudes towards nuclear energy.

France gets something like 90% of their electricity from nuclear now. But you’ll notice, this is one time that liberals like AbelMalcolm are *NOT* saying that Europe is ahead of us and we need to catch up! — Steven L.

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.  

Do liberals like you understand the economic law of supply and demand? After trying to tinker with it for nearly a century with wage-and-price controls and rent controls and price supports, will liberals ever understand the basic immutability of that law? The reason why solar power is more attractive in other countries is that their fossil fuel costs are higher. The reason why gas-guzzling SUVs are more attractive in America than in other countries is that our gasoline prices are lower. See how that works now? — Steven L.

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.

   Well, let’s see how they work out for the Japanese    and Germans. Solar-power setups aren’t exactly    CHEAP you know … the cell arrays cost big bucks    plus you’ve gotta have power storage and converters    so you can get properly phased 110/220vac.    Weather-wise, both of those countries would make    good test cases … they don’t get 365.25 days    of perfect sunshine every year. Plenty of cloudy    days. If solar pays for THEM, it’s worth further    investment HERE.

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.  In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology.  But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. Yet more proof, that anytime you vote for a Republican you are voting to take America backwards.  Think about it.  

I bought my house new in 1985. It came with a complex solar assisted water heating system. The roof unit started leaking in 1998. I asked how much it would cost to replace it and the answer was $2,500. I chose not to replace it at that time. To the best of my calculations the unit saved me around $150 per month. If I were to replace it today at that $2,500 amount and assuming that it wouldn’t break down again it would take 139 years for me to break even on the deal. Fuel prices may be high enough in Germany and Japan to make wide spread solar usage economical but not where I live. Let me know when It becomes cheaper then the current system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Abel Malcolm www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51…             President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy.  Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips.  But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president.  To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg

"I suspect that the problem is not with those that believe that there is a heaven above but with those that believe that there can be a heaven here on earth." — Captain Compassion "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. –Will Durant "Madmen reason rightly from the wrong premisis" — Locke   You can never redistribute wealth only poverty. Because of the natural inequities of man and the nature of wealth it is impossible for all men to be rich. It is possible for all men to be poor. Just ask any Socialist they can tell you how. — Captain Compassion Joseph R. Darancette

Response:

40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.  In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology.  But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them.

He thinks it would be nice *if* the oil industry found solar panels offensive, for that would be a sign that they compete with oil. Since the US federal government takes, in effect, more profit by taxing oil and gas than any private outfit that produces them takes in profits as such, another plausible way to look at this is that the "oil president" of the pair was Carter. This would be in keeping with their respective attitudes towards nuclear energy. — Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc — fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

Response:

I will make this real simple for you to understand.  I will install a solar panel on my house when it saves me more money than it cost.  I will never install a solar panel on my house when the cost of installing the darn thing, means that I may be long gone from this earth before I ever recover the cost of the installation and maintenance.  And yes, I did check into the idea of installing a solar panel.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.  In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology.  But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. Yet more proof, that anytime you vote for a Republican you are voting to take America backwards.  Think about it. Abel Malcolm

www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51… L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy.  Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips.  But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president.  To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg

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40% of all the world’s installed solar cells are in Japan, 20% in Germany, and only 12% of them are in the United States.  In 1976, Democratic President Jimmy Carter had installed solar panels on the White House roof, in an attempt to publicize and encourage interest in the technology.  But then in 1980, Republican President Ronald Reagan took over the White House, so Reagan promptly ordered the removal of all those solar panels, because the oil industry was offended by them. Yet more proof, that anytime you vote for a Republican you are voting to take America backwards.  Think about it.   Abel Malcolm www.sfgate.com/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/16/BUGHM51…             President Jimmy Carter pushed incentives during the late ’70s to promote solar and renewable energy.  Environmentalist Denis Hayes, who organized the first Earth Day event and ran the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the Carter administration, said he tried to get federal agencies to buy solar cells to create demand. Hayes, now president of the environmental Bullitt Foundation in Seattle, said it was such government purchases that helped drive down the cost of computer chips.  But neither Carter nor his support for solar lasted. Hayes is convinced that if Carter had won re-election and pushed a federal procurement program, solar energy would have reached its current cost by the end of his second term… In California, two programs have spurred solar adoption: a rebate that helps defray the cost of installing small-to-mid-sized solar arrays and a policy that allows solar users to sell electricity to the utilities. Called net metering, the latter program has spurred a revolution in solar affordability, said Shugar, the PowerLight president.  To understand why, realize that today, the typical solar array is connected to the energy grid, rather than charging batteries, as was the case in the old days, when solar was mainly installed far from power lines, or off-grid. So, during the hottest, brightest part of the day, solar arrays can pump electricity back into the grid, spin the electric meter backward and lower electricity bills, Shugar said. While some California homeowners have taken advantage of these incentives to install solar arrays, Shugar said, the program appeals mainly to businesses. They can afford the installation costs and have the patience to wait for the payback — free or cheaper energy once the initial investment is recouped. According to Frost & Sullivan, these incentives have reinforced California’s role as the U.S. leader in solar energy installation. At the international level, though, the United States is lagging Japan and Germany, which offer more aggressive incentives to install solar. Various estimates say Japan has 40 percent of the world’s installed solar cells, followed by Germany with 20 percent and the United States with 12 percent. Hayes, the environmentalist, says Japanese and German government support gives manufacturers an edge in what could become one of the growth industries of the future. "Someone is going to do for photovoltaics what Henry Ford did for automobiles, and it pains me deeply that, at this moment, it seems extremely unlikely that someone is going to be an American,” Hayes said. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Educate yourself & go to these links: http://www.moveon.org & http://www.salon.com & http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.democrats.org & http://www.commondreams.org & http://www.bushwatch.com & http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm & http://earth.prohosting.com/songofth/jobcreation.jpg

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